Lie Detectors

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by ansumania » Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:29 pm
Stacey Koprince wrote:Ok, thanks for the source. Let's use some different sentences to examine the principle. :)

The original sentence:

The use of GMAT books is based on the assumption that studying produces hormones in an individual that, in turn, create unconscious physical responses. (Yes, I know the meaning of the sentence is kind of amusing - I'm trying to match some singular and plural stuff in the original sentence!)

The "in turn" bit is just a little modifier tossed in to break up the sentence a bit and confuse you. Ignore it!

The use of GMAT books is based on the assumption that studying produces hormones in an individual that create unconscious physical responses.

Core:
The use <of X> is based on the assumption that studying produces <Y>.

Modifier Y:
hormones <in A> that create <Z> responses

No problems with core or modifier so far. I assume that the people who chose C thought there was something wrong with A, so let me know what you thought was wrong.

Now, adapting our new sentence for choice C:

The use of GMAT books is based on the assumption that studying produces hormones in an individual creating, in turn, unconscious physical responses.

Core:
The use <of X> is based on the assumption that studying produces <Y>.

Modifier Y:
hormones <in an individual creating responses?>

Still no problem in the core. That modifier, though... that's messy. There's no comma between "individual" and "creating" and that's a big problem. Try this phrase:
"stress in an individual studying hard for the GMAT"

What does that "studying hard for the GMAT" refer to? In this sentence, it's modifying the individual - and that makes sense.

But what about our example above? It's ambiguous here - "individual" is a candidate for the noun, because an individual can create unconscious responses... and so can the hormones... and, hey, so can studying! Which is it? Ambiguity = bad.

Note that there is no ambiguity in A, because the conjugated verb "create" can match only with a plural subject, so it must match with the plural "hormones." Now we know that it's definitely the hormones creating the responses. :)
Stacey,
Just to get more clarification.
The use of GMAT books is based on the assumption that studying produces hormones in an individual creating, in turn, unconscious physical responses.

In the above example, the word 'creating' modifies the nearest noun 'individual' , therefore it is incorrect . you already mentioned that.
Now, I am modifying the sentence a bit:
The use of GMAT books is based on the assumption that studying produces hormones in an individual, creating, in turn, unconscious physical responses.
I just added a comma after the word individual. Now it is a case of ', ing' modifier and should modify the whole clause 'studying produces hormones in an individual' . In this sentence , ', creating' can only modify 'studying' as it is the subject and not hormones. But the intended meaning is to modify 'hormones' , therefore it is wrong.
Pl. let me know whether I am correct in my analysis.

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by Stacey Koprince » Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:40 am
If you insert a comma before the word "creating," then yes, it turns into a "comma -ing" modifier, which is an adverbial modifier. This modifier should modify the entire preceding clause - the full meaning, not just the subject.

The full meaning is "studying produces hormones (in someone)."

Studying produces hormones, creating unconscious physical responses.

That's probably okay. You could argue that the complete action "studying --> hormones" then leads to the creation of unconscious physical responses.

You could also say: studying produces hormones, which (hormones only) create...
Or: studying produces hormones that create... (hormones only again)

It just depends what you're trying to say. And the real test would ONLY give you both of those options if it indicated clearly in the original sentence what meaning it wanted. Otherwise, there's no way to tell.
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by ansumania » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:48 am
Stacey Koprince wrote:If you insert a comma before the word "creating," then yes, it turns into a "comma -ing" modifier, which is an adverbial modifier. This modifier should modify the entire preceding clause - the full meaning, not just the subject.

The full meaning is "studying produces hormones (in someone)."

Studying produces hormones, creating unconscious physical responses.

That's probably okay. You could argue that the complete action "studying --> hormones" then leads to the creation of unconscious physical responses.

You could also say: studying produces hormones, which (hormones only) create...
Or: studying produces hormones that create... (hormones only again)


It just depends what you're trying to say. And the real test would ONLY give you both of those options if it indicated clearly in the original sentence what meaning it wanted. Otherwise, there's no way to tell.
stacey,

I think the adverbial modifier can modify anything but the object . If it means to modify the hormones (italicized), then shouldn't it be wrong. I guess that is how the options are to be eliminated , atleast that is what I have understood from your previous posts regarding this type of usage. Pl. suggest.

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by Stacey Koprince » Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:24 pm
An adverbial modifier can modify anything except a noun (and only a noun). It can modify an entire clause, which does have a noun... but it also has a verb.

Just to make sure you know this: an -ing word is not always an adverbial modifier. -ing words can be adverbial or noun modifiers, depending upon how they're used.
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by ansumania » Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:57 pm
I think I confused you.

what I want say is that: adverbial modifiers can modify the whole clause (they can modify sub , verb), but they can't modify the object of the previous clause (pl. correct me if this part of my analysis is wrong)

Again, if the above is correct: studying produces hormones, creating.......

here the actual meaning is 'hormones that create' (atleast it is one of the 3 meanings that you mentioned above); if that is the case , the adverbial modifier modifies 'hormones' , which is the object . As per the rule , it should be wrong. Pl. let me know if this part of the analysis is wrong.

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by Stacey Koprince » Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:08 am
Adverbial modifiers can include the object, in terms of what they modify, along with the subject and verb. They canNOT modify only the object.

I bought ice cream, making the ice-cream seller happy.
It isn't just "I" that made the ice-cream seller happy, or even "I bought." It's "the fact that I bought ice cream."[/i]
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by tyronetan82 » Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:37 am

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by MBA » Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:59 pm
Stacey Koprince wrote:Ok, thanks for the source. Let's use some different sentences to examine the principle. :)

The original sentence:

The use of GMAT books is based on the assumption that studying produces hormones in an individual that, in turn, create unconscious physical responses. (Yes, I know the meaning of the sentence is kind of amusing - I'm trying to match some singular and plural stuff in the original sentence!)

The "in turn" bit is just a little modifier tossed in to break up the sentence a bit and confuse you. Ignore it!

The use of GMAT books is based on the assumption that studying produces hormones in an individual that create unconscious physical responses.

Core:
The use <of X> is based on the assumption that studying produces <Y>.

Modifier Y:
hormones <in A> that create <Z> responses

No problems with core or modifier so far. I assume that the people who chose C thought there was something wrong with A, so let me know what you thought was wrong.

Now, adapting our new sentence for choice C:

The use of GMAT books is based on the assumption that studying produces hormones in an individual creating, in turn, unconscious physical responses.

Core:
The use <of X> is based on the assumption that studying produces <Y>.

Modifier Y:
hormones <in an individual creating responses?>

Still no problem in the core. That modifier, though... that's messy. There's no comma between "individual" and "creating" and that's a big problem. Try this phrase:
"stress in an individual studying hard for the GMAT"

What does that "studying hard for the GMAT" refer to? In this sentence, it's modifying the individual - and that makes sense.

But what about our example above? It's ambiguous here - "individual" is a candidate for the noun, because an individual can create unconscious responses... and so can the hormones... and, hey, so can studying! Which is it? Ambiguity = bad.

Note that there is no ambiguity in A, because the conjugated verb "create" can match only with a plural subject, so it must match with the plural "hormones." Now we know that it's definitely the hormones creating the responses. :)
HI,

sorry I am opening an old thread but can "that"refers to the "plural" as in the present example "that"refers to "reactions"---plural (OG correct option-A)or in the other example"hormones"(your example)which is again plural.
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by Target2009 » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:10 pm
komal wrote:The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption that lying produces emotional reactions in an individual that. in turn, create unconscious phYSiological responses.
(A) that, in turn, create unconscious physiological responses
(8) that creates unconscious physiological responses in turn
(C) creating, in turn, unconscious physiological responses
(D) to create, in turn, physiological responses that are unconscious
(E) who creates unconscious physiological responses in turn
IMO : A
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by MBA » Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:34 pm
Hi,

can anyone answer my question--

How can "that"refers to the "plural noun" as in the present example "that"refers to "reactions"---plural (OG correct option-A)or in the other example"hormones"(Stacey's example)which is again plural.

thanks

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by lunarpower » Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:08 am
MBA wrote:Hi,

can anyone answer my question--

How can "that"refers to the "plural noun" as in the present example "that"refers to "reactions"---plural (OG correct option-A)or in the other example"hormones"(Stacey's example)which is again plural.

thanks
this isn't the kind of "that" that you have in mind.

you're thinking of the pronoun "that" that appears in parallel constructions -- for instance, the government of country X and that of country Y.
in the case of that kind of pronoun, yes, you would need the version "those" to refer to something that's plural.
the regulatory entities of country X and those of country Y

on the other hand, this is a MODIFIER form of "that" -- i.e., a "that" that serves a purpose similar to the purpose served by "which" modifiers.
in this case, it's always "that", regardless of whether the noun in question is singular or plural.
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by MBA » Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:47 am
Thanks a lot !

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by voodoo_child » Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:48 pm
lunarpower wrote:
MBA wrote:Hi,

can anyone answer my question--

How can "that"refers to the "plural noun" as in the present example "that"refers to "reactions"---plural (OG correct option-A)or in the other example"hormones"(Stacey's example)which is again plural.

thanks


this isn't the kind of "that" that you have in mind.

you're thinking of the pronoun "that" that appears in parallel constructions -- for instance, the government of country X and that of country Y.
in the case of that kind of pronoun, yes, you would need the version "those" to refer to something that's plural.
the regulatory entities of country X and those of country Y

on the other hand, this is a MODIFIER form of "that" -- i.e., a "that" that serves a purpose similar to the purpose served by "which" modifiers.
in this case, it's always "that", regardless of whether the noun in question is singular or plural.
a dog that barks
dogs that bark
Ron - I have a question.

What's a difference between "the government of country X and country Y" vs. "the government of country X and that of country Y" ? I believe both are same. Correct ?

Thanks
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by lunarpower » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:38 am
voodoo_child wrote:What's a difference between "the government of country X and country Y" vs. "the government of country X and that of country Y" ? I believe both are same. Correct ?

Thanks
Voodoo
they are not the same.

"the government [singular] of country x and y" implies that there is only a single government for both countries x and y.

"the government of country x and that of country y" implies the more reasonable meaning that the two countries have separate governments. note that you could achieve the same effect with "the governments [plural] of country x and (of) country y".
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by EducationAisle » Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:35 am
voodoo_child wrote: What's a difference between "the government of country X and country Y" vs. "the government of country X and that of country Y" ? I believe both are same. Correct ?

Thanks
Voodoo

Well, the interpretation would would actually depend upon the entire sentence. Let's take an example:

The government of country X and country Y has decided to amend the constitution.

The above sentence would actually be correct, since the sentence would genuinely mean that the author wants to suggest that both country X and country Y have the same government (though it does not sound very logical).

A bigger problem is with the following sentence:

The government of country X and country Y have decided to amend the constitution.

This sentence has a bigger meaning issue since it can be interpreted either as:

a) (The government of country X) and (The government of) country Y have decided to amend the constitution. OR

b) (The government of country X) and country Y have decided to amend the constitution.
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