Lie Detectors

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by Kajiabeat » Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:05 am
Stacey Koprince wrote:"individual" is not a prepositional phrase, not by itself. By itself, it's a noun. And you can have an -ing word modify the noun in a prepositional phrase. (The prepositional phrase is "in an individual.")

For example:
Cheating causes problems for students trying to pass the test honestly.

(Clunky, yes. If I were writing an ideal sentence, I might want to say "for students who are trying..." but technically I can say it the way I said it in the example above.)

"for students" is a prepositional phrase. Who is trying to pass the test honestly? The students.

I don't have my OG book handy so can't comment on the explanation given in the book, but I will say that I have found some OG explanations, in the past, that are confusing, borderline misleading, and sometimes outright wrong, both in terms of actual grammar rules and in terms of contradicting other explanations for their own problems. (That last doesn't happen that often, but it does happen.) The questions are the best. The explanations are not.


Hi Ron,

About Stacy's example above, I also prefer "students who try to.." to "students trying to..." after doing lots of GMAT SC problems. But could you please elaborate on why the former one is worse than the later one? In GMAT, under what kind of circumstances can we rightly use present participle modifier to modify a noun?

Thank you very much!

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by lunarpower » Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:32 am
Kajiabeat wrote:Hi Ron,according to Stacy's explanation, it seems we can also choose E, isn't it?
hi -- sorry for any inconvenience, but could you please post the text of that choice again? (or just copy and paste the text of the entire problem)
this thread is over 60 posts long by this point, so a direct reference would be very useful. thanks.
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by guble123 » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:58 pm
The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption
that lying produces emotional reactions in an individual
that, in turn, create unconscious phYSiological
responses
.
(A) that, in turn, create unconscious physiological
responses
(B) that creates unconscious physiological
responses in turn
(C) creating, in turn, unconscious physiological
responses
(D) to create, in turn, physiological responses that
are unconscious
(E) who creates unconscious physiological
responses in turn

how can 'that' refers to 'reactions' when it is touching 'individual'...is this a case of 'mission critical modifier'?? or am i missing something ??

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by lunarpower » Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:18 am
guble123 wrote:how can 'that' refers to 'reactions' when it is touching 'individual'...is this a case of 'mission critical modifier'?? or am i missing something ??
check out this post from earlier in this thread -- especially the official guide problem referenced in the post:
https://www.beatthegmat.com/lie-detector ... tml#356970

short version:
no, "that" modifiers don't have to touch the noun to which they refer -- the only requirements are:
(a) the modifier be placed as close as possible to that noun
(b) the meaning must be clear.

(this sentence would actually be impossible to write if you had such a strict rule -- "reactions in an individual" shouldn't be broken up.)
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by voodoo_child » Sat Aug 06, 2011 9:58 am
Ron,
I am sorry to open up the old thread. what's would be a correct interpretation for this?

1) grains of sand or pebbles => does it mean ( {grains of sand} OR {grains of pebbles})? OR
(grains of sand) or (pebbles) ?

2) a grain of sand or pebble

{I went through the thread again, and I believe that the correct interpretation would be a grain of (sand OR pebble)} Am I correct?
REason - "a grain" is a singular entity. Hence, "sand or pebble" together modify "a grain"


Here's an official question and your explanation....

https://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/met ... t7945.html

I am a bit confused. Please shed some light :(

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by SticklorForDetails » Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:45 am
voodoo child:

You asked me to reply here but I want to reiterate something Ron said above that you should always keep in mind: the goal, above all else, is for a sentence to be absolutely clear. Also, logic and context are way more important than most give them credit for being on the GMAT.

"grains of sand or pebbles" means (grains of sand) or (pebbles) because we don't have grains of pebbles.

"grains of sand or rice" would mean (grains of sand) or (grains of rice) because we do have grains of rice.

When it's unclear from context and/or from grammar what a phrase is supposed to mean, it's wrong. When it is clear, then it could very well be part of the right answer, even if the modification isn't as perfect as you'd want it to be. Sometimes all 5 answer choices have flawed modification but the one that breaks no hard-and-fast rules and is clear is the correct answer.

Hope that helps.
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by jonathan123456 » Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:56 am
Eliminating B,D and E is quite simple.
Between A and C, prefer Verb (create) than Action Noun (creating). So IMO A.

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by lunarpower » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:15 am
SticklorForDetails wrote:voodoo child:

You asked me to reply here but I want to reiterate something Ron said above that you should always keep in mind: the goal, above all else, is for a sentence to be absolutely clear. Also, logic and context are way more important than most give them credit for being on the GMAT.

"grains of sand or pebbles" means (grains of sand) or (pebbles) because we don't have grains of pebbles.

"grains of sand or rice" would mean (grains of sand) or (grains of rice) because we do have grains of rice.

When it's unclear from context and/or from grammar what a phrase is supposed to mean, it's wrong. When it is clear, then it could very well be part of the right answer, even if the modification isn't as perfect as you'd want it to be. Sometimes all 5 answer choices have flawed modification but the one that breaks no hard-and-fast rules and is clear is the correct answer.

Hope that helps.
this is correct, and very well-written... except for the last part: according to GMAC, there is never any "flawed modification" (or any "flawed" anything, for that matter) in a correct answer choice. if we encounter something in a correct answer that we *think* is "flawed", then that means we have to recalibrate our idea of "flawed", at least for this exam.

in any case, that minor quibble aside, the idea here is on point: YOU SHOULD NEVER ANALYZE THE GRAMMAR OF A SENTENCE UNTIL YOU'VE FIGURED OUT ITS MEANING.
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by voodoo_child » Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:17 pm
Ron and Adam,
Ok. Let's change the phrase a bit. e.g "a government of US or Canada". =Would it mean hypothetical government of (US or Canada) OR would it mean (a government of US) or (a government of Canada). Logically, as suggested by you, a government of (US or Canada) doesn't make any sense. Hence, in my opinion, it would mean a government of US or a government of Canada.

The reason why I asked this question is that I want to understand how we can distribute in such phrases. E.g.
Can I say "a government of country x and country y" equals "hypothetical govt of (x and y)." However, a government of country X and that of y carries a different meaning.

So, my question is

a government of x or y <=> a government of x or that of y?

OR

a government of x or y is illogical? (because of meaning)

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by lunarpower » Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:22 am
voodoo_child wrote:Would it mean hypothetical government of (US or Canada) OR would it mean (a government of US) or (a government of Canada).
there's no difference between these, so you can pick whichever is easier for you to think about.
if you don't see why there's no difference, consider "a bowl of rice or noodles", and break it up in these two ways -- either way you get the same interpretation.

in any case -- the best guide here, as in many other matters of interpretation, is to use whatever interpretation (a) is literally correct AND (b) squares with common sense.
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by SticklorForDetails » Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:22 am
lunarpower wrote:according to GMAC, there is never any "flawed modification" (or any "flawed" anything, for that matter) in a correct answer choice. if we encounter something in a correct answer that we *think* is "flawed", then that means we have to recalibrate our idea of "flawed", at least for this exam.[/b]
Fair enough. Allow me to rephrase: an answer choice may be correct if the modification isn't ideal based on your definition of "ideal." On the one hand, you want to learn as much as possible what is "flawed" modification and what is "acceptable-but-icky" modification, the latter of which might appear in a right answer on a test. On the other hand, since you won't be perfect in this on test day, you have to be open to the 5 choices they give you. Sometimes, something seems wrong but is repeated in all 5 choices; clearly, then, it wasn't actually wrong.

My main point was that "flawed" modification often means the incorrect or ambiguous meaning. In your most recent post, voodo_child, all of the examples have the correct/clear meaning, so all are acceptable. In short, there is more than one possible correct way to phrase a sentence with acceptable modification, although there are far more ways to do so wrong.
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by lunarpower » Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:02 pm
SticklorForDetails wrote:
lunarpower wrote:according to GMAC, there is never any "flawed modification" (or any "flawed" anything, for that matter) in a correct answer choice. if we encounter something in a correct answer that we *think* is "flawed", then that means we have to recalibrate our idea of "flawed", at least for this exam.[/b]
Fair enough. Allow me to rephrase: an answer choice may be correct if the modification isn't ideal based on your definition of "ideal." On the one hand, you want to learn as much as possible what is "flawed" modification and what is "acceptable-but-icky" modification, the latter of which might appear in a right answer on a test. On the other hand, since you won't be perfect in this on test day, you have to be open to the 5 choices they give you. Sometimes, something seems wrong but is repeated in all 5 choices; clearly, then, it wasn't actually wrong.
ah, ok, i got you. still, it's best to stay away even from the idea of icky-ness -- especially on a forum like this one, on which the majority of users are looking for answers that are as black-and-white as possible.
i.e., when considering english usage in general it's impossible to get away from such subjective judgments, because there are many conflicting "authorities" and, of course, lots of regional differences too. however, conveniently enough, the english usage on this test is subject only to the infallible dictates of GMAC, so for once it's possible to view it through a clear lens of right vs. wrong -- even in those cases in which their version of "right" overlaps with your and my version of "wrong".
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by SticklorForDetails » Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:56 am
lunarpower wrote:
SticklorForDetails wrote:
lunarpower wrote:according to GMAC, there is never any "flawed modification" (or any "flawed" anything, for that matter) in a correct answer choice. if we encounter something in a correct answer that we *think* is "flawed", then that means we have to recalibrate our idea of "flawed", at least for this exam.[/b]
Fair enough. Allow me to rephrase: an answer choice may be correct if the modification isn't ideal based on your definition of "ideal." On the one hand, you want to learn as much as possible what is "flawed" modification and what is "acceptable-but-icky" modification, the latter of which might appear in a right answer on a test. On the other hand, since you won't be perfect in this on test day, you have to be open to the 5 choices they give you. Sometimes, something seems wrong but is repeated in all 5 choices; clearly, then, it wasn't actually wrong.
ah, ok, i got you. still, it's best to stay away even from the idea of icky-ness -- especially on a forum like this one, on which the majority of users are looking for answers that are as black-and-white as possible.
i.e., when considering english usage in general it's impossible to get away from such subjective judgments, because there are many conflicting "authorities" and, of course, lots of regional differences too. however, conveniently enough, the english usage on this test is subject only to the infallible dictates of GMAC, so for once it's possible to view it through a clear lens of right vs. wrong -- even in those cases in which their version of "right" overlaps with your and my version of "wrong".

I'm not entirely sure I agree. For example, the GMAT does prefer active over passive constructions. Nevertheless, passive answers can often be correct, and are correct. Thus it's not wrong for us to look at a passive or awkwardly-phrased sentence and say "eww, that's icky," but it IS wrong to eliminate answers based on this rule. The black-and-white grammar rules come first but the style rules are still tested. Furthermore, many test-takers find their ear to be a good first clue, although it needs to be backed up by applying the rules and conventions tested, objectively (as you point out), on the GMAT.

In a sense we agree that "ickiness" is not a grounds for, well, anything really on the GMAT, but I think it's foolish to deny that "ickiness" exists, that it's often the first thing we notice when reading an SC sentence, and that while this forum's users often demand black-and-white answers, what they really want is a higher score on the GMAT, something which will be better attained by using all of their skills, instincts, and strategies, and not pretending not to notice that a right answer is "icky" even though it's right.

SC correct answers, unlike those in CR and RC, are only correct in comparison to the other choices, and a great deal of the time, a correct SC answer would have been wrong had their been a different set of possible answers. I'm sure you can think of some examples of this, but if not, I could provide some. These are the situations where a test-taker is absolutely correct in calling it "icky" and should not be bullied into ignoring their instincts. I think instead of forcing us to see every correct answer as Absolutely Correct, we should encourage students to be comfortable with the "acceptable-but-icky" category.

Just my opinion as an educator.
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by lunarpower » Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:37 pm
SticklorForDetails wrote: I'm not entirely sure I agree. For example, the GMAT does prefer active over passive constructions.
not true, actually.
in the old OG (10th) the passive was woven into a lot of otherwise awkward answers, sure. but, in the most recent OG this is just false: OG 12 has 33 problems in which the student must actually choose between active and passive, and a slight majority of these (17 of 33) are decided in favor of the passive.
The black-and-white grammar rules come first but the style rules are still tested. Furthermore, many test-takers find their ear to be a good first clue, although it needs to be backed up by applying the rules and conventions tested, objectively (as you point out), on the GMAT.
i wholeheartedly agree -- for native speakers. in fact, i just wrote an article for a forthcoming mgmat book in which i explicitly advocate a (limited) use of "ear judgment" for native speakers.

on the other hand, "awkwardness"/"ickyness" is well beyond the ken of the vast majority of non-native speakers, excepting only
those who have read and written the language at very high levels for many years, if not decades. since that description fits very few posters in this forum, it's not fair to advocate "awkwardness" as a criterion.
In a sense we agree that "ickiness" is not a grounds for, well, anything really on the GMAT, but I think it's foolish to deny that "ickiness" exists, that it's often the first thing we notice when reading an SC sentence, and that while this forum's users often demand black-and-white answers, what they really want is a higher score on the GMAT, something which will be better attained by using all of their skills, instincts, and strategies, and not pretending not to notice that a right answer is "icky" even though it's right.
i agree in theory, but that sort of intuition is something that takes years and years of immersion -- not to mention a complete 180-degree shift in learning philosophy (from memorization-based to intuitive). i am totally on board with what you are saying in theory, but we differ in that you seem to believe that such intuition is attainable by students (a) who have not fully absorbed even the fundaments of how english is structured (e.g. many posters who still write questions in the form "Why A is wrong?" after hundreds of posts and (b) who are on a very limited study timeline.
in order to meet the needs of students with such a profile, we must avoid anything that requires advanced and subtle intuition that, to be fair, even a majority of native english speakers don't really have in full.
SC correct answers, unlike those in CR and RC, are only correct in comparison to the other choices, and a great deal of the time, a correct SC answer would have been wrong had their been a different set of possible answers.
if what you are saying is "some error types are relative" -- e.g. modifier placement (like og12 #107) and parallelism -- then yes. however, the vast majority of SC's have four choices that are wrong for objective reasons.
I'm sure you can think of some examples of this, but if not, I could provide some. These are the situations where a test-taker is absolutely correct in calling it "icky" and should not be bullied into ignoring their instincts. I think instead of forcing us to see every correct answer as Absolutely Correct, we should encourage students to be comfortable with the "acceptable-but-icky" category
again, totally on board here, but only in the case of (a) educated native speakers and (b) non-native speakers who can write the language at a native level, the latter of whom are relatively rare. if someone is posting things like "why A is wrong?" then it is a given that such a person's instincts will be either miscalibrated or not yet developed.
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by sui generis » Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:10 am
(E) who creates unconscious physiological responses in turn
Choice E is grammatically correct but it changes the meaning.

How can we conclude that the intended meaning is the one implied in choice A ?

If choice A were grammatically incorrect then would choice E be the correct answer ?