"ing" Modifier Three Different Versions in OG????

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by abhasjha » Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:01 pm
goelmohit2002 wrote:
abhasjha wrote:
The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing from city to city, and to the establishment of regional times.

(A) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing
(B) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and which differed
(C) which were determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing
(D) determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differed
(E) determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing


the answer is E
Hi Abhasjha,

Thanks. I was confused between C and E here......can you please tell why the answer cannot be C here ?

manhattan sentence correction guide , 3rd edition says ..... " parallel clauses should start with the same word ."

For example ,

1. I want to retire to a place where i can relax and where the taxes are low . (CORRECT )

I want to retire to a place where i can relax and that has low taxes .(INCORRECT)

2. A mastadon Carcass , which has been thawed only once and which is still fresh , is on display . (CORRECT)

A mastadon Carcass , thawed only once and which is still fresh , is on display . (INCORRECT )

in option C ..... which were determined ....... and differing .....
suffers from this error ...

option C should be written as which were determined and which were differing ..... to hold a fighting chance ......

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by goelmohit2002 » Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:06 am
abhasjha wrote: manhattan sentence correction guide , 3rd edition says ..... " parallel clauses should start with the same word ."

For example ,

1. I want to retire to a place where i can relax and where the taxes are low . (CORRECT )

I want to retire to a place where i can relax and that has low taxes .(INCORRECT)

2. A mastadon Carcass , which has been thawed only once and which is still fresh , is on display . (CORRECT)

A mastadon Carcass , thawed only once and which is still fresh , is on display . (INCORRECT )

in option C ..... which were determined ....... and differing .....
suffers from this error ...

option C should be written as which were determined and which were differing ..... to hold a fighting chance ......
Hi Abhas,

Can you please point me to the chapter/page of Manhtaan SC guide which says so...

IMO as far as I rememeber the following is the case....

#1. A mastadon Carcass , which has been thawed only once and which is still fresh , is on display . (CORRECT)

#2. A mastadon Carcass , thawed only once and which is still fresh , is on display . (INCORRECT )

#3. A mastadon Carcass , which has been thawed only once and is still fresh , is on display . (CORRECT )

Note that in #3 we are not repeating the which....and IMO it is still correct(which before "is" is implied)....the same is the case with option C.....which follows the same rule as sentence #3.....

IMO there must be someother reason to kick out option C in the question that you gave above.

Please tell if I am misinterpreting you or missing something here.

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by goelmohit2002 » Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:18 am
Stacey Koprince wrote: The "comma -ing" part should be commenting on the preceding clause. The problem? The stuff preceding the comma is not a clause. "For the farmer (who takes care to keep them cool)" is just a noun followed by a noun modifier. So, we have to change the sentence somehow. (Plus, it makes it sound like the farmer is keeping them cool by giving them a certain kind of food and milking them... but that doesn't make a lot of sense...)

One way is to turn this into a list of three things:
"For the farmer who takes care to keep them (a) cool, (b) provided with high energy feed and (c) milked regularly, Holstein cows..."

For the farmer who takes care to keep them cool
For the farmer who takes care to keep them provided with high energy feed
For the farmer who takes care to keep them milked regularly

See the parallelism?
Hi Stacey,

Thanks a lot !

Can you please tell why the same principle do not apply to the following question:(OG-10, Q249). Here the OA = B. How "including" is modifying the previous noun i.e. musicians here.....why not the entire clause ?

Bluegrass musician Bill Monroe, whose repertory, views on musical collaboration, and vocal style were influential on generations of bluegrass artists. was also an inspiration to many musicians, that included Elvis Presley and Jerry Garcia. whose music differed significantly from his own.

(A) were influential on generations of bluegrass artists, was also an inspiration to many musicians, that included Elvis Presley and Jerry Garcia, whose music differed significantly from

(B) influenced generations of bluegrass artists, also inspired many musicians, including Elvis Presley and Jerry Garcia, whose music differed significantly from

(C) was influential to generations of bluegrass artists, was also inspirational to many musicians, that included Elvis Presley and Jerry
Garcia, whose music was different significantly in comparison to

(D) was influential to generations of bluegrass artists, also inspired many musicians, who included Elvis Presley and Jerry Garcia, the music of whom differed significantly when compared to

(E) were an influence on generations of bluegrass artists, was also an inspiration to many musicians, including Elvis Presley and Jerry Garcia, whose music was significantly different from that of

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by abhasjha » Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:39 am
goelmohit2002 wrote:
abhasjha wrote: manhattan sentence correction guide , 3rd edition says ..... " parallel clauses should start with the same word ."

For example ,

1. I want to retire to a place where i can relax and where the taxes are low . (CORRECT )

I want to retire to a place where i can relax and that has low taxes .(INCORRECT)

2. A mastadon Carcass , which has been thawed only once and which is still fresh , is on display . (CORRECT)

A mastadon Carcass , thawed only once and which is still fresh , is on display . (INCORRECT )

in option C ..... which were determined ....... and differing .....
suffers from this error ...

option C should be written as which were determined and which were differing ..... to hold a fighting chance ......
Hi Abhas,

Can you please point me to the chapter/page of Manhtaan SC guide which says so...

IMO as far as I rememeber the following is the case....

#1. A mastadon Carcass , which has been thawed only once and which is still fresh , is on display . (CORRECT)

#2. A mastadon Carcass , thawed only once and which is still fresh , is on display . (INCORRECT )

#3. A mastadon Carcass , which has been thawed only once and is still fresh , is on display . (CORRECT )

Note that in #3 we are not repeating the which....and IMO it is still correct(which before "is" is implied)....the same is the case with option C.....which follows the same rule as sentence #3.....

IMO there must be someother reason to kick out option C in the question that you gave above.

Please tell if I am misinterpreting you or missing something here.
Dear mohit ,

I am talking about manhattan sentence correction , 3rd edition , SC guide , Page number 68 , chapter number 4 - parallelism strategy , under the heading - What else is considered parallel - Look for the fourth point ....


In the sentence " A mastodon Carcass , which has been thawed only once and is still fresh , is on display ."

The main clause or the principal clause or the independent clause is - "A mastodon Carcass is on display" and the part which has been thawed only once and is still fresh is a phrase that adds additional comment to the Independent clause . The additional information being - thawed only once and is still fresh .

In case if you consider the part - " IS ON DISPLAY " as a clause then i ask you a question - can you find out what is the subject in the part - is on display " (reading nothing else than this - after you read the sentence a mastodon carcass is on display together you can find the subject which is mastodon carcass )?

for any thing to be called as a clause it is necessary that the part has a subject and a verb . If this condition is not being fulfilled then the part is phrase and not a clause .

I have written in my earlier post that parallel clause needs to start with the same words . What if they are not clause but they are phrase ??? .....

Simply looking at the forms or structure and not understanding what role they play in a sentence might harm you .

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by mruzeful » Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:36 pm
abhasjha wrote:Hi vineet ,

Let me clear your doubt .

The -ing form is used for DOING the action, which means SUBJECT, which means ACTIVE voice.

The -ed form is used for RECEIVING the action, which means OBJECT, which means PASSIVE voice.

Before I go further, let me offer two examples that will make things clearer as we go along:
� speaking person (the -ing form)
� spoken words (the -ed form)


Language variations originate from various ethnic and cultural heritages' ----> So 'originate' modifies the subject 'language variations'. So '-ing form' originating
'Geographic isolations perpetuate language variations' ---> So 'perpetuate' modifies the object 'language variations'. So '-ed form' perpetuated


An idea of how active sentences are converted into passive would also give you and idea as to how we can determine an object :

Let me give you an example :

Congress funded the clean up (active form) .

When written into passive form

The clean up was funded by congress .

The subject of the active sentence - �the congress � follows by phrase ( by congress) in the passive sentence .

This is a hint enough that if the sentence were written in the active form then congress would be subject and clean up the object .


In the question that you posted :

Language variations Perpetuated by geographic isolation

When converted into active :

Geographical isolation perpetuates language variation ��


So language variation acts as an object here and therefore should be in �ed form . that is perpetuated .


So option D is the correct choice .


In case you wish to solve a similar problem , here it goes ��.



The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which was determined by when the sun reached the observer�s meridian and differing from city to city, and to the establishment of regional times.

(A) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer�s meridian and differing
(B) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer�s meridian and which differed
(C) which were determined by when the sun reached the observer�s meridian and differing
(D) determined by when the sun reached the observer�s meridian and differed
(E) determined by when the sun reached the observer�s meridian and differing


the answer is E
Many thanks for the info provided..

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by goelmohit2002 » Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:00 am
Stacey Koprince wrote:
Can you please look at the following link....looks like people are having different opinion....

https://www.beatthegmat.com/gerund-being ... tml#135844

Can you please tell what indeed is the case ?
So, yes, in a setup where you have a noun that is modifying a gerund, you could put that noun in the form of a possessiven noun (that is, turn it into an adjective) in order to modify the other noun (the gerund).

This is not wrong grammatically, necessarily. It's just almost always considered "awkward" by both the GMAT and most of our ears. :)

I really dislike the problem at the above link. On the real GMAT, I think the correct answer would have said something more like "Any allegations of John's involvement in..." as the real GMAT generally tries to avoid the "possessive noun + gerund" setup. (Not always, but most of the time - just like it mostly avoids using "being.")

That problem also makes the distinction in some choices of using the article "a" before the word "choice" and sometimes dropping the article. That also seems atypical of the GMAT to me.

I really, really would not study the problem at the above link. :)
Hi Stacey,

Thanks for your wonderful insights...can you please tell can this be the reason to kick out the option C in the following question....as none of us are really sure what is the exact reason to kick out C....

https://www.beatthegmat.com/health-care- ... 40660.html

Thanks
Mohit

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Good thread on modifiers

by krishnakumarhod » Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:00 pm
Good discussion.

Thanks a lot for your explanation Stacey :)

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by vineetbatra » Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:00 pm
Hello Stacey,

To begin with, Ing forms have been the bane of my existence in the SC world, but this post has really helped me in to understand it; however, I still have a question.

OG 12 Q1 - (bugger I got stuck at the first question, anyways) I read in one of your post that Adverbial ing modifiers modifies the noun preceeding it, in choice C of the example below Naming should refer to James Cook; however, the explanation in OG says "As an object of the preposition not the subject of the clause, James Cook cannot work as the noun that the verbal phrase beginning with naming can describe; preposition since loses the important causal logic of the sentence"

Here I do not understand why naming cannot refer James Cook and what does "since loses the important causal logic" means.

Also correct choice D, says who so, but James Cook is the object so whould be whom.

Thanks,

Vineet

The Glass House Mountains in Queensland, Australia, were sighted in 1770 by the English navigator Caption James Cook, by whom they were named supposedly because its sheer wet rocks glistered like glass.



A.
B.
C. naming them supposedly since their
D. who so named them supposedly because their
E.

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by capnx » Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:16 pm
if I may offer my opinion (following what i've learned from Stacy)

if present participles do not modify nouns but rather the whole clause before it (namely, the subject and the predicate), in this case "naming" cannot modify James Cook, but the subject+pred which are "The Glass House Mountains... were sighted". However, it's not the "sighting" of the mountain that did the "naming", it's James Cook. So logically "naming" is an incorrect modifier.

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Simple

by btGMATgary » Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:27 am
goelmohit2002 wrote:
abhasjha wrote:
The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which was determined by when the sun reached the observer?s meridian and differing from city to city, and to the establishment of regional times.

(A) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer?s meridian and differing
(B) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer?s meridian and which differed
(C) which were determined by when the sun reached the observer?s meridian and differing
(D) determined by when the sun reached the observer?s meridian and differed
(E) determined by when the sun reached the observer?s meridian and differing


the answer is E
Hi Abhasjha,

Thanks. I was confused between C and E here......can you please tell why the answer cannot be C here ?
Hello Stacey,

Example:
"These arrangements enable the equipment to receive the incoming call, made by the operator and reponding to the request."

According to the grammatical principle applied in the quoted question, "made by the operator and reponding to the request" is the noun modifier modifying the call, however, i usually use it as an adverbial modifier, with comma, to modify the clause.

I intend to use two participles "made by the operator" and "reponding to the request" to modify the object but i don't know how to "link" them, "made by the operator and reponding to the request" may be mis-interpreted as modifying "These arrangements", please kindly advise.

Your reply is much appreciated.

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by Stacey Koprince » Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:20 am
capnx - good answer! Yes, a "comma -ing" setup is an adverbial modifier, and adverbial modifiers modify the preceding clause, not just the preceding noun.

vineet - I think you might have gotten that mixed up with noun modifiers, which do modify just the preceding noun, not the entire preceding clause.

gary - if the incoming call is made by the operator, then "made by the operator" does not actually need a comma before it. You can just have:

"... the incoming call made by the operator."

What do you want the "responding to the request" part to modify? I can't find anything that would make sense - the call is not responding to the request. the operator is the one making the call, so the operator is also not the one responding. I'm just not clear - who's making a request and who's responding to a request?
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by vineetbatra » Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:19 am
Stacey,

Thanks for the clarfication, can you also please explain what role rising is playing in choice B, and what is wrong with D.

Thanks,

Vineet

Noting that the Federal Reserve had raised a key short-term interest rate last month, analysts said that they expected orders for durable goods to decline soon because rising interest rates makes it more expensive to buy them on credit.

1) Same

2) rising interest rates make buying on credit more expensive

3) a rise in interest rates make it more expensive to buy on credit

4) a rise in interest rates make buying on credit more expensive

5) a rise in interest rates makes it more expensive for them to be bought on credit

What is wrong with D, cna someone please explain.

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by goelmohit2002 » Fri Sep 18, 2009 5:54 am
vineetbatra wrote:Stacey,

Thanks for the clarfication, can you also please explain what role rising is playing in choice B, and what is wrong with D.

Thanks,

Vineet

Noting that the Federal Reserve had raised a key short-term interest rate last month, analysts said that they expected orders for durable goods to decline soon because rising interest rates makes it more expensive to buy them on credit.

1) Same

2) rising interest rates make buying on credit more expensive

3) a rise in interest rates make it more expensive to buy on credit

4) a rise in interest rates make buying on credit more expensive

5) a rise in interest rates makes it more expensive for them to be bought on credit

What is wrong with D, cna someone please explain.
just sharing my opinion...although Stacey can exactly tell what is the issue.

D says " a rise in interest rates...."

B says " rising interest rates...."

Original sentence said "rising interest rates"...so we have to retain the original meaning....thus D is wrong.

I guess rising is acting as adjective to "interest rates" in choice B....i.e. telling more about interest rates.

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by scoobydooby » Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:06 pm
D is wrong also because of subject-verb disagreement

(subject) a rise: singular; (verb) make: plural.

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by goelmohit2002 » Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:52 am
scoobydooby wrote:D is wrong also because of subject-verb disagreement

(subject) a rise: singular; (verb) make: plural.
yes good catch scooby....I missed the same.