Though he had - MGMAT SC - The Beat The GMAT Forum - Expert GMAT Help & MBA Admissions Advice

Though he had - MGMAT SC

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mehravikas: Legendary Member; Posts: 1161; Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 2:52 amFollowed by: 1 member; Location: Sydney; Thanked: 23 times

by mehravikas » Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:00 pm

Though he had had success broadcasting his controversial radio program on highly regulated terrestrial airwaves, Howard Stern opted out of terrestrial broadcasting in favor of the less regulated satellite radio medium.

a. Though he had had
b. Though he has had
c. Even though he had
d. Having had
e. Having achieved

OA: A
Source: MGMAT Practice Exams
Doubt: [spoiler]Why do we need had had, what is the difference between using had had and had. Is it past perfect vs simple past?[/spoiler]

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Source: Beat The GMAT — Sentence Correction | Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:00 pm

capnx: Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts; Posts: 268; Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:22 amFollowed by: 1 member; Thanked: 19 times; GMAT Score:700

by capnx » Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:16 pm

there's a little discussion here:
https://gmatclub.com/forum/howard-stern-mgmat-82346.html

He had success. past tense (had used as a real verb)
He had had success. past perfet (1st had, helping verb, indicating perfect tense; 2nd had, real verb, to possess, to hold, to own...)
it sounds awkward because it's not used this way often, but there's no real grammar mistake in A

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siddharth rastogi: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 66; Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:01 am; Thanked: 2 times

HI EVERY ONE, please solve the problem.....................

by siddharth rastogi » Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:03 pm

But i think c should be the answer
as, howard must have opted for terestrial brodcasting first and then got success in broadcasting his controversial programe...............

so, the sequese should be ( opted)in pastperfect and ( success) in simple past...........

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mehravikas: Legendary Member; Posts: 1161; Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 2:52 amFollowed by: 1 member; Location: Sydney; Thanked: 23 times

by mehravikas » Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:19 am

Thanks but that raises more doubts

Why do we need "had" for simple past?

According to me the examples of simple past and past perfect would be:

1. In 1976, 60% of families were couples with children. - Simple past
2. By 1996, this had fallen to 51%. - Past perfect

Do we really need "By 1996, this had had fallen to 51%."???? for past perfect?

Please explain.

capnx wrote:there's a little discussion here:
https://gmatclub.com/forum/howard-stern-mgmat-82346.html

He had success. past tense (had used as a real verb)
He had had success. past perfet (1st had, helping verb, indicating perfect tense; 2nd had, real verb, to possess, to hold, to own...)
it sounds awkward because it's not used this way often, but there's no real grammar mistake in A

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lunarpower: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 3380; Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 amFollowed by: 1535 members; Thanked: 2256 times; GMAT Score:800

by lunarpower » Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:50 am

1. In 1976, 60% of families were couples with children. - Simple past
2. By 1996, this had fallen to 51%. - Past perfect

this is correct.

--

i feel your pain here, because you're confusing two completely different uses of the word "had".

one use of "had" is the PAST TENSE of the infinitive "TO HAVE". (let's call this "had1")
this is like other past tenses, such as "was", "chose", "ran", "threw".

another is the PAST PARTICIPLE of the infinitive "TO HAVE". (let's call this "had2")
this is like other past participles, such as "been", "chosen", "run", "thrown".

the other is as a HELPING VERB that appears in the PAST PERFECT. (let's call this "had3")

here's how "to have" is conjugated:
present: he has the flu.
past: he had the flu. (this is had1)
past perfect: he had had the flu. (this is had3 had2)

analogy: some other random verb, such as "to choose"
present: he chooses the steak entree.
past: he chose the steak entree.
past perfect: he had chosen the steak entree. (this is had3)

the difficulty here lies in not confusing the different "had"s.

hope that helps

Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

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mehravikas: Legendary Member; Posts: 1161; Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 2:52 amFollowed by: 1 member; Location: Sydney; Thanked: 23 times

by mehravikas » Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:39 am

Does that mean we never need had had such a sentence:

he had chosen the steak entree. (this is had3)
he had had chosen the steak entree. (this is had3) - incorrect

but it would correct to say - he had had a steak entree

Phewwwwwww..

lunarpower wrote:

--

i feel your pain here, because you're confusing two completely different uses of the word "had".

one use of "had" is the PAST TENSE of the infinitive "TO HAVE". (let's call this "had1")
this is like other past tenses, such as "was", "chose", "ran", "threw".

another is the PAST PARTICIPLE of the infinitive "TO HAVE". (let's call this "had2")
this is like other past participles, such as "been", "chosen", "run", "thrown".

the other is as a HELPING VERB that appears in the PAST PERFECT. (let's call this "had3")

here's how "to have" is conjugated:
present: he has the flu.
past: he had the flu. (this is had1)
past perfect: he had had the flu. (this is had3 had2)

analogy: some other random verb, such as "to choose"
present: he chooses the steak entree.
past: he chose the steak entree.
past perfect: he had chosen the steak entree. (this is had3)

the difficulty here lies in not confusing the different "had"s.

hope that helps

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lunarpower: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 3380; Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 amFollowed by: 1535 members; Thanked: 2256 times; GMAT Score:800

by lunarpower » Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:42 am

mehravikas wrote:Does that mean we never need had had such a sentence:

he had chosen the steak entree. (this is had3)
he had had chosen the steak entree. (this is had3) - incorrect

but it would correct to say - he had had a steak entree

all correct.

note that "had had success" and "had had a steak entree" are ok, because "success" and "steak entree" are NOUNS.

you can't have had3 + had2 + chosen, because then you have 2 past participles in a row. that's not allowed.

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mehravikas: Legendary Member; Posts: 1161; Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 2:52 amFollowed by: 1 member; Location: Sydney; Thanked: 23 times

by mehravikas » Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:53 am

Thanks heaps Ron.

Would you be able to give an official prep or MGMAT CAT problem which has an example of had had (apart from the one posted in this forum). I have come across "had had" problem for the first time. Just want to go through 1-2 more problems. It's difficult to find such sentence correction questions.

lunarpower wrote:
mehravikas wrote:Does that mean we never need had had such a sentence:

he had chosen the steak entree. (this is had3)
he had had chosen the steak entree. (this is had3) - incorrect

but it would correct to say - he had had a steak entree
all correct.

note that "had had success" and "had had a steak entree" are ok, because "success" and "steak entree" are NOUNS.

you can't have had3 + had2 + chosen, because then you have 2 past participles in a row. that's not allowed.

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siddharth rastogi: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 66; Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:01 am; Thanked: 2 times

HI, RON

by siddharth rastogi » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:26 am

THANKS a lot RON,
for such a wonderful explanation.

Can u please give the answer of the following question, as i think the OA- A is wrong, because in my opinion the action 1( opted out of terrestrial broadcasting........) is the previous one and

action 2 (he had success in broad casting...) is done after opting out terrestrial broad casting.

so, ans should be C

Though he had had success broadcasting his controversial radio program on highly regulated terrestrial airwaves, Howard Stern opted out of terrestrial broadcasting in favor of the less regulated satellite radio medium.

a. Though he had had
b. Though he has had
c. Even though he had
d. Having had
e. Having achieved

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lunarpower: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 3380; Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 amFollowed by: 1535 members; Thanked: 2256 times; GMAT Score:800

Re: HI, RON

by lunarpower » Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:45 pm

siddharth rastogi wrote:THANKS a lot RON,
for such a wonderful explanation.

Can u please give the answer of the following question, as i think the OA- A is wrong, because in my opinion the action 1( opted out of terrestrial broadcasting........) is the previous one and

action 2 (he had success in broad casting...) is done after opting out terrestrial broad casting.

nope. action 2 comes first, and its termination is precisely at the moment of action 1. this is the perfect setup for the past perfect.

note that action 2 is "had had success in broadcasting on terrestrial airwaves".
action 1 is "opted out of terrestrial broadcasting".

you probably just didn't notice the highlighted part of #2. if you notice that, it should be clear why this must precede #1.

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lunarpower: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 3380; Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 amFollowed by: 1535 members; Thanked: 2256 times; GMAT Score:800

by lunarpower » Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:52 pm

mehravikas wrote:Thanks heaps Ron.

Would you be able to give an official prep or MGMAT CAT problem which has an example of had had (apart from the one posted in this forum). I have come across "had had" problem for the first time. Just want to go through 1-2 more problems. It's difficult to find such sentence correction questions.

there aren't any others in our tests, as far as i know. we try not to overdo things; every question that repeats a topic is a question that precludes the appearance of another topic.

in any case:

if this is too confusing, then try replacing "had" (not the helping verb, but the participle or past tense) with some synonym.
depending on the context, this could be "owned", "achieved", "experienced", etc.

here "had" is being used in the context of success, so "achieved" is probably the best substitution.
so, in this problem, choice (a) would be "had achieved", (b) would be "has achieved", (c) just "achieved", etc. ironically, it would render choices (d) and (e) identical, throwing them both into doubt.
(note that (d) and (e) are perfectly correct grammatically; they just don't make sense from a logical standpoint, as they seem to present a concordance where there should be a contrast.)

this will probably do wonders as far as making the point more clear.

--

on a lighter note:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_whil ... he_teacher

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mehravikas: Legendary Member; Posts: 1161; Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 2:52 amFollowed by: 1 member; Location: Sydney; Thanked: 23 times

by mehravikas » Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:28 pm

Wow

lunarpower wrote:
mehravikas wrote:Thanks heaps Ron.

Would you be able to give an official prep or MGMAT CAT problem which has an example of had had (apart from the one posted in this forum). I have come across "had had" problem for the first time. Just want to go through 1-2 more problems. It's difficult to find such sentence correction questions.
there aren't any others in our tests, as far as i know. we try not to overdo things; every question that repeats a topic is a question that precludes the appearance of another topic.

in any case:

if this is too confusing, then try replacing "had" (not the helping verb, but the participle or past tense) with some synonym.
depending on the context, this could be "owned", "achieved", "experienced", etc.

here "had" is being used in the context of success, so "achieved" is probably the best substitution.
so, in this problem, choice (a) would be "had achieved", (b) would be "has achieved", (c) just "achieved", etc. ironically, it would render choices (d) and (e) identical, throwing them both into doubt.
(note that (d) and (e) are perfectly correct grammatically; they just don't make sense from a logical standpoint, as they seem to present a concordance where there should be a contrast.)

this will probably do wonders as far as making the point more clear.

--

on a lighter note:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_whil ... he_teacher

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shahdevine: Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts; Posts: 197; Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 2:47 am; Thanked: 12 times

Re: Though he had - MGMAT SC

by shahdevine » Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:46 pm

mehravikas wrote:Though he had had success broadcasting his controversial radio program on highly regulated terrestrial airwaves, Howard Stern opted out of terrestrial broadcasting in favor of the less regulated satellite radio medium.

a. Though he had had
b. Though he has had
c. Even though he had
d. Having had
e. Having achieved

OA: A
Source: MGMAT Practice Exams
Doubt: [spoiler]Why do we need had had, what is the difference between using had had and had. Is it past perfect vs simple past?[/spoiler]

had+verb is past perfect and its used to identify order of two past events. in this sentence, hw's success in terrestial broadcasting is in the past as is his opting to do satellite. so we need to order their sequence through the past perfect. "had" by itself is simple past and that would be relevant if hw's opting was an event that had not ended.

you got this man!

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siddharth rastogi: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 66; Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:01 am; Thanked: 2 times

hi ron

by siddharth rastogi » Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:06 pm

RON,thanks again

Though he had had success broadcasting his controversial radio program on highly regulated terrestrial airwaves, Howard Stern opted out of terrestrial broadcasting in favor of the less regulated satellite radio medium.

a. Though he had had
b. Though he has had
c. Even though he had
d. Having had
e. Having achieved

RON, though is used to contrast one event say 1 to the other say 2

But in the above sentence I am not able to get the real contrast.

If the person hadhad sucess in terrestrial airwaves( 1)
Why ( THOUGH IS USED)contrast is showed to say that he opted again terrestrial brodcasting ?

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lunarpower: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 3380; Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 amFollowed by: 1535 members; Thanked: 2256 times; GMAT Score:800

Re: hi ron

by lunarpower » Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:11 am

siddharth rastogi wrote:RON,thanks again

Though he had had success broadcasting his controversial radio program on highly regulated terrestrial airwaves, Howard Stern opted out of terrestrial broadcasting in favor of the less regulated satellite radio medium.

a. Though he had had
b. Though he has had
c. Even though he had
d. Having had
e. Having achieved

RON, though is used to contrast one event say 1 to the other say 2

But in the above sentence I am not able to get the real contrast.

If the person hadhad sucess in terrestrial airwaves( 1)
Why ( THOUGH IS USED)contrast is showed to say that he opted again terrestrial brodcasting ?

the second clause says that he "OPTED OUT". this mean that he QUIT terrestrial broadcasting.

given that he had previously enjoyed success, this is indeed a contrast.

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