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Thermometer

by heshamelaziry » Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:49 am
Created in 1731, Anders Celsius' original thermometer had a scale where the value of 0 corresponded to the boiling point of water; after he died in 1744 the scale was reversed to its present form.

in 1731, Anders Celsius' original thermometer had a scale where the value of 0 corresponded to the boiling point of water; after he died in 1744 the scale was reversed to its present form.

in 1731, Anders Celsius' original thermometer had a scale in which the value of 0 corresponded to the boiling point of water; after his death in 1744 the scale was reversed to its present form.

in 1731, Anders Celsius' original thermometer had a scale in which the value of 0 corresponded to the boiling point of water; after he died in 1744 the scale was reversed to its present form.

by Anders Celsius in 1731, his original thermometer had a scale in which the value of 0 corresponded to the boiling point of water; reversing the scale to its present form after his death in 1744.

by Anders Celsius in 1731, his original thermometer had a scale where the value of 0 corresponded to the boiling point of water; after his death in 1744 the scale reversed to its present form.


OA [spoiler]B. I can't understand why a possesive pronoun must be used with a possisive noun ? Because in either case, he clearly refers to him and his still refers to him[/spoiler]
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by mehravikas » Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:13 pm
Sorry but I am not able to understand your doubt. Can you explain further?
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by heshamelaziry » Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:21 pm
mehravikas wrote:Sorry but I am not able to understand your doubt. Can you explain further?
The question i posted is relevant to the difference between answers B and C
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B

by hitmewithgmat » Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:44 pm
This questions tests whether you can spot "pronoun" mistakes.

A)First, "where" is wrong. Second, ...<AC's thermometer>;...<he>.... is wrong. The possessive noun is AC's thermometer. Possessive pronoun can refer back to possessive nouns. But, subject and object pronouns may not refer back to possessive nouns. Therefore, <he> is used incorrectly because it seems to refer back to <AC's thermometer>. The same mistake goes to C.
B correctly this mistake beautifully. The possessive pronoun "his" refers back to "AC's original thermometer". Bull's eye.

D. After semi colon, there should be a sentence, not phrase or clause. Besides, it sounds awkwary.

E. "where" is wrong. Besides, "scale WAS reversed" "was" is needed.

Hope this helps.
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by RumpelThickSkin » Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:14 pm
Sorry to bring out this old post. I understand that after the comma the SUBJECT (i.e. what is being modified) must follow.

I do not understand the following rule in this problem (Possessive Pronouns)

in OPTION (B) in 1731, Anders Celsius' original thermometer had a scale in which the value of 0 corresponded to the boiling point of water; after his death in 1744 the scale was reversed to its present form.

THE SUBJECT right after the is Anders Celsius's orginal thermometer not Ander Celsius so how can we use HIS after the ; i.e. his deadth? Doesn't Anders Celsius need to be explictly mentioned as the SUBJECT? His to me here refers to Anders Celsius's thermometer and NOT Anders Celsius! Would be grateful for explanations on this!

This is a Manhattan question!

It would be really good if the MGMAT experts (Stacy or Ron) could shed some light on these. It will greatly help me unclutter my mind regarding THE usage of pronouns. Many thanks for your help in advance guys!
Last edited by RumpelThickSkin on Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by martin.jonson007 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:24 am
hitmewithgmat wrote:This questions tests whether you can spot "pronoun" mistakes.

A)First, "where" is wrong. Second, ...<AC's thermometer>;...<he>.... is wrong. The possessive noun is AC's thermometer. Possessive pronoun can refer back to possessive nouns. But, subject and object pronouns may not refer back to possessive nouns. Therefore, <he> is used incorrectly because it seems to refer back to <AC's thermometer>. The same mistake goes to C.
B correctly this mistake beautifully. The possessive pronoun "his" refers back to "AC's original thermometer". Bull's eye.

D. After semi colon, there should be a sentence, not phrase or clause. Besides, it sounds awkwary.

E. "where" is wrong. Besides, "scale WAS reversed" "was" is needed.

Hope this helps.
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by martin.jonson007 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:28 am
hitmewithgmat wrote:This questions tests whether you can spot "pronoun" mistakes.

A)First, "where" is wrong. Second, ...<AC's thermometer>;...<he>.... is wrong. The possessive noun is AC's thermometer. Possessive pronoun can refer back to possessive nouns. But, subject and object pronouns may not refer back to possessive nouns. Therefore, <he> is used incorrectly because it seems to refer back to <AC's thermometer>. The same mistake goes to C.
B correctly this mistake beautifully. The possessive pronoun "his" refers back to "AC's original thermometer". Bull's eye.

D. After semi colon, there should be a sentence, not phrase or clause. Besides, it sounds awkwary.

E. "where" is wrong. Besides, "scale WAS reversed" "was" is needed.

Hope this helps.
I hope u are saying that E is excluded b'coz passive voice needed in both sentenses thats why WAS is required in 2nd one.....

Plz correct me if wrong...
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by lunarpower » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:01 pm
RumpelThickSkin wrote:THE SUBJECT right after the is Anders Celsius's orginal thermometer not Ander Celsius so how can we use HIS after the ; i.e. his deadth? Doesn't Anders Celsius need to be explictly mentioned as the SUBJECT? His to me here refers to Anders Celsius's thermometer and NOT Anders Celsius! Would be grateful for explanations on this!
ever since i joined this company i have been horrified to see this "rule" mentioned in our materials. this post, along with many, many others, is a prime illustration of why.
basically:

* this "rule" has so far been necessary in a grand total of 0 official problems.

* for every one student who seems to understand the "rule" thoroughly, there are several, such as the poster here, who are confused by it.

we are finally purging this rule completely from the upcoming editions of our verbal materials, but i would imagine that we will continue to have to do this sort of damage control for some time.

the "rule" is:
* POSSESSIVE NOUN with NON-POSSESSIVE PRONOUN is NOT OK.
BUT
ALL OTHER COMBINATIONS are ok.
i.e.
possessive noun with possessive pronoun is ok.
non-possessive noun with non-possessive pronoun is ok.
non-possessive noun with possessive pronoun is ok.

that's the complete version of the rule -- which, not surprisingly, tends to confuse a lot more than it tends to enlighten. also, although it may help you eliminate the odd answer choice here and there, it has NEVER actually been required to solve an official problem.
so:
ONLY use this "rule" if you understand it 100.0000%. if there is absolutely any confusion at all, just ignore this rule and pretend that you have never seen it.

what is perhaps most interesting is that gmac itself is starting to distance itself from this rule.
if you look at problem #86 in the FIRST edition verbal supplement (the purple book), the answer key declares, very explicitly, that the pronoun "grammatically ... CANNOT" refer to the possessive noun.
on the other hand, if you open your second edition verbal review (the blue one) to #81, you will find that the explanation has been completely revised -- completely removing all traces of these former bold claims and replacing them, eyes darting nervously around the room, with "grammatically its referent is somewhat unclear".
this is pretty clear evidence that even gmac doesn't believe in the sanctity of this rule anymore, although to date they have not written any problems that violate it.
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

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by Stacey Koprince » Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:00 am
Received a PM asking me to respond. Ron has already discussed the main issue above but just want to add something about the specific problem above.

<Anders Celsius'> is a possessive noun. "thermometer" is a regular (non-possessive) noun.

The pronoun "his" is a possessive pronoun.

as Ron said, it is okay to refer to a possessive noun with a possessive pronoun.

Just want to make sure you all do know what a possessive noun is. :)
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by ramprakaashk » Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:32 am
Hi Ron and Stacey,

Your explanation is very useful. Can you please give some example for all of the 4 negative and positive scenarios and we can understan still better and clearer..

the "rule" is:
* POSSESSIVE NOUN with NON-POSSESSIVE PRONOUN is NOT OK.
BUT
ALL OTHER COMBINATIONS are ok.
i.e.
possessive noun with possessive pronoun is ok.
non-possessive noun with non-possessive pronoun is ok.
non-possessive noun with possessive pronoun is ok.
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by lunarpower » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:24 am
ramprakaashk wrote:Hi Ron and Stacey,

Your explanation is very useful. Can you please give some example for all of the 4 negative and positive scenarios and we can understan still better and clearer..

the "rule" is:
* POSSESSIVE NOUN with NON-POSSESSIVE PRONOUN is NOT OK.
BUT
ALL OTHER COMBINATIONS are ok.
i.e.
possessive noun with possessive pronoun is ok.
non-possessive noun with non-possessive pronoun is ok.
non-possessive noun with possessive pronoun is ok.
ok, but, first, i'm going to reiterate my warning above:
This is one of the least important rules in all of SC.

ONLY use this "rule" if you understand it 100.0000%. if there is absolutely any confusion at all, just ignore this rule and pretend that you have never seen it.
i figure the warning is worth repeating, since the fact that you're asking this question implies that you don't understand the rule 100.000000%. just remember -- this "rule" is about a thousand times more likely to cause confusion than it is to actually help you solve a problem. but, ok, now that you've seen this disclaimer -- if you want to jump into this particular snake pit, here you go:
possessive
non-possessive

The President's advisors told him to avoid discussing the topic.
--> NOT OK according to this rule

The President was told by his advisors to avoid discussing the topic.
--> OK

The President, whose advisors had told him not to discuss the topic, kept silent.
--> OK

The President's advisors told his staff not to discuss the topic.
--> OK
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

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by anantbhatia » Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:10 am
Although an older thread, came across this while I had exactly the same confusion. Probably Ron n Stacey (Thanks, both of you) have been quick enough to edit the same qn that came across in one of the MGMAT's test:-

Created in 1731, the original thermometer by Anders Celsius had a scale where the value of 0 corresponded to the boiling point of water; after he died in 1744 the scale was reversed to its present form.

in 1731, the original thermometer by Anders Celsius had a scale where the value of 0 corresponded to the boiling point of water; after he died in 1744 the scale was reversed to its present form

in 1731, the original thermometer by Anders Celsius had a scale in which the value of 0 corresponded to the boiling point of water; after his death in 1744 the scale was reversed to its present form

in 1731, the original thermometer by Anders Celsius had a scale in which the value of 0 corresponded to the boiling point of water; after he died in 1744 the scale had reversed to its present form

by Anders Celsius in 1731, his original thermometer had a scale in which the value of 0 corresponded to the boiling point of water; reversing the scale to its present form after his death in 1744

by Anders Celsius in 1731, his original thermometer had a scale where the value of 0 corresponded to the boiling point of water; after his death in 1744 the scale reversed to its present form
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by anantbhatia » Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:14 am
Another example:-

The governor's team of advisors, including her education and political strategists, has not been available for comment since the governor released her controversial education reform proposal.

has not been available for comment since the governor released her controversial education reform proposal
have not been available for comment since the governor released her controversial education reform proposal
have not been available for comment since she released her proposal on controversial education reform
has not been available for comment since she released her controversial education reform proposal
has not been available to make comments since she released her proposal on controversial reform in education

[spoiler]OA: A
Source:MGMAT[/spoiler]

this makes the above rule clear.
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