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princeton SC- tenses

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princeton SC- tenses

by bblast » Wed May 18, 2011 10:46 am
In the 1970's an elite preschool in New York City had approximately 150 applications per year, and by the 1990's, this number rose to 3,000.


this number rose

the number had risen

the amount had risen

this number was raised

the number of applications had risen

oa-B

N.B. Queries:
1>i am hitting good on SC's but these past perfects screw me at times. Can someone please elaborate with a few general examples. In this question "New York City had approximately"--this fragment conveys possesive use of HAD ? This is not perfect tense usage I guess ?

[spoiler]2>why do we need B as an answer choice here ? what action is taking place before the rise in 1990 ?[/spoiler]
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by HSPA » Wed May 18, 2011 6:37 pm
this number rose

the number had risen

the amount had risen

this number was raised

the number of applications had risen


I intially went with A.. I dont understand the usage of Had here. If B is true then shall E too.
I do see lot of resemblence in B,E.
A - I am not sure on 'this' but simple past regarding 1990 makes lot of sense.
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by smackmartine » Wed May 18, 2011 6:59 pm
Please follow this link for more explanation :

https://www.beatthegmat.com/population-q ... 80972.html
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by atulmangal » Wed May 18, 2011 8:01 pm
smackmartine wrote:Please follow this link for more explanation :

https://www.beatthegmat.com/population-q ... 80972.html
Thanks for this link brother, even i was searching for this same link.
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by bblast » Wed May 18, 2011 8:41 pm
brilliant explanation Atul on this one.
BTW can u clear this ?

and by the 1990's, the number had rised to 3,000. - correct as per your prize example.

what about the first half of the sentence ?
whats the "HAD" doing in there ?

In the 1970's an elite preschool in New York City had approximately 150 applications per year,
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by atulmangal » Wed May 18, 2011 9:02 pm
bblast wrote:brilliant explanation Atul on this one.
Thanks brother, i'm glad my post helped!!
what about the first half of the sentence ?
whats the "HAD" doing in there ?
In the 1970's an elite preschool in New York City had approximately 150 applications per year
Sure i will clear your doubt. First of all, HAD in the first part is showing PAST TENSE NOT PAST PERFECT...as u can see, there only HAD is there NOT HAD + 3rd form of verb.

If u are clear on this let me explain the rest with a simple MADE UP example.

In 1970, i WAS the president of state university, and by the year 1990, i HAD BECOME the president of USA.

try to understand the meaning.

In first part u are talking about the year 1970 specifically, u (sitting in present 2011) are actually telling what u are in 1970, so simple past. In more simpler words, u fixed the time frame in year 1970 and talking about what you are in that year.

In the second part, if u notice u are actually telling, what u were BEFORE 1990...in second part u are fixing a time frame of year 1990 but you are talking about something which is already happened before 1990, means u become the president before 1990, hence PAST PERFECT. Again in simpler words, here you fixed the time frame at 1990 and then moving on the left side of it or moving in the previous years than this year, hence PAST PERFECT.

You can relate this MADE UP example with the given question, both have the same structure. Since, my example is a MADE UP so please ignore the logical flaw in this example if u find any.

Hope this help!!!
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by atulmangal » Wed May 18, 2011 9:18 pm
One more point to add:

When i say fixing the time frame, it doesn't mean that we can only fix a particular year, we can fix in fact a whole decade or even a whole century, as in this question:

In the 1970's an elite preschool in New York City had approximately 150 applications per year

Here, we are fixing the whole decade 1970's and talking about what happened in that decade...so all the events that took place in that decade require past tense.
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by HSPA » Thu May 19, 2011 2:11 am
atulmangal wrote:
smackmartine wrote:Please follow this link for more explanation :

https://www.beatthegmat.com/population-q ... 80972.html
Thanks for this link brother, even i was searching for this same link.
Atul..You freak...I am jealous now... You are damm good man.. Where did you get this.. Grrrrr

Thanks for the copypaste notes
First take: 640 (50M, 27V) - RC needs 300% improvement
Second take: coming soon..
Regards,
HSPA.
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by atulmangal » Thu May 19, 2011 2:58 am
HSPA wrote:
atulmangal wrote:
smackmartine wrote:Please follow this link for more explanation :

https://www.beatthegmat.com/population-q ... 80972.html
Thanks for this link brother, even i was searching for this same link.
Atul..You freak...I am jealous now... You are damm good man.. Where did you get this.. Grrrrr

Thanks for the copypaste notes
Thanks brother, these concepts are self made. After struggling a lot in tenses, i designed my own way to get their feel. Glad u liked it.

Regards
Atul
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by bblast » Fri May 20, 2011 7:49 am
that is as good an article on past perfect I have seen in a long time,


atul,

is this case applicable only in the "by the year 2020" format ? I mean the understood past perfect thing.



hats off to princeton verbal too ,, it really comes up with good questions at times,
Cheers !!

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by atulmangal » Fri May 20, 2011 8:06 am
bblast wrote:that is as good an article on past perfect I have seen in a long time,


atul,

is this case applicable only in the "by the year 2020" format ? I mean the understood past perfect thing.



hats off to princeton verbal too ,, it really comes up with good questions at times,
Great!!! glad u liked it...
is this case applicable only in the "by the year 2020" format ? I mean the understood past perfect thing.
well i don't think so, i believe the whole thing is based on meaning. for ex:
consider two examples (again made ups)

1. Before i applied in Stanford in 1980, i had scored 760 marks in GMAT.

Here its easy to figure out that the second clause must use past perfect as u get an indication, past tense used in first clause and u did something before that. But what if i rewrite the sentence in this way:

2. Before applying to Stanford in 1980, i had scored 760 marks in GMAT.

As per my knowledge this is also correct.

Finally, i must say generally i have seen this "by the ..bla bla" thing only but saying that this is the only valid case is not correct.

Thanks
Atul
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by bblast » Fri May 20, 2011 10:29 am
Just cross check the last 2 examples with an expert.

My flashcards say we do not need past perfect with before/after. This is mentioned in MGMAT SC.
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by atulmangal » Fri May 20, 2011 10:49 am
bblast wrote:Just cross check the last 2 examples with an expert.

My flashcards say we do not need past perfect with before/after. This is mentioned in MGMAT SC.
I know before posting that u goona raise this question....well on the same thing u are talking about a fellow mate put a separate post...i also searched the same on internet and on some genuine sites i find that the above mentioned concepts are not always true. That's i stop relying on this shortcut funda's....one more concept is like this:

The word "SINCE" always indicates that the sentence contain PRESENT PERFECT...but i find one question where that's not true....

In sum, i also follow these rules when i have to make a smart guess because of time constraint, otherwise not.
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