Some important issues with RC99 passages

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thp510: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 48; Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:35 pmFollowed by: 1 member; Thanked: 1 times

by thp510 » Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:16 pm

Can I get people's opinion on using RC99? I was a big fan of it for a while but for some reason I'm slowly doubting this RC tool. Every since Passage 18, I'm having doubts on the credibility of the answer choices and the reasons why; a lot of the "right" choices are dubious at best. Any thoughts? Opinions? Am I better off just reading dull American Scientific Online articles?

Thanks

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Source: Beat The GMAT — Reading Comprehension | Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:16 pm

msrrautela: Junior | Next Rank: 30 Posts; Posts: 21; Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:05 am; Thanked: 1 times

by msrrautela » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:58 am

Well, I have done 62 passages in all till now and don't think that the answers are dubious .Initially,since I was getting a lot of questions wrong, I also sometimes thought that maybe there's some problem with the answers,but after going through the explanations, I used to realize my folly and realized that my way of thinking was not correct. Over a period of one month now, I can see remarkable improvement not only in my accuracy but in my thought process as I know where I tend to get things wrong in RC.

It's a dawg eat dawg world!

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Paulrichards: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 40; Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:27 amFollowed by: 2 members; Thanked: 7 times

by Paulrichards » Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:45 am

thp510 wrote:Can I get people's opinion on using RC99? I was a big fan of it for a while but for some reason I'm slowly doubting this RC tool. Every since Passage 18, I'm having doubts on the credibility of the answer choices and the reasons why; a lot of the "right" choices are dubious at best. Any thoughts? Opinions? Am I better off just reading dull American Scientific Online articles?

Thanks

Dude I think Passage 18 is one of the easiest passages in the book and all the questions have very straightforward answers. Why don't you put up the questions on these forums so we could help you out with the same. Actually that's the best way to clarify doubts. I have done around 50 passages (from all 3 difficulty levels) in the RC99 so far and there were some questions in the high difficulty passages (such as the 75th one) which I couldn't make sense of, so i discussed them over the forums and realized my mistake on each occasion.

Generally in RC (specially in the case of Inference questions) we tend to become a little inflexible and look at things only from our point of view. It pays to keep an open mind, even on CR for that matter.

I think you can safely continue practicing passages in the RC99 and if you have doubts put them up over here. We all learn from each other, that is the idea behind these forums.

Good luck!

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hja379: Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts; Posts: 208; Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:10 pmFollowed by: 2 members; Thanked: 20 times

by hja379 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:13 am

I completely agree with PaulRichards. I have done a lot of them and never had doubts about the answer choices. You should post the questions in the forums. It would help you better comprehend the passages as well. You can comfortably study them.

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thp510: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 48; Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:35 pmFollowed by: 1 member; Thanked: 1 times

by thp510 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:33 am

Let's be carefully on what we consider "easy". To me, reading music is easy,
but that's because I've been doing a lot of it. RC may be easy to you since you've
been practicing on how to answer RC questions. It's all relative. The "reading" itself
might have been easy since it's a pretty interesting topic to digest, but my hesitation
lies within the questions and answers.

Two questions that just didn't pass the "this is now obvious" test on passage 18.

Most moviegoers tend to sum up all of a film's features - acting, directing,
special effects, and script - into a blanket "•I loved it"– or "•hated it"–. But
movie industry workers, and even film connoisseurs, can attest to the
contribution of the movie's "—cinematics', or technical features, towards
creating any movie's atmosphere.

Artistic movies are composed of a multitude of "—shots' or discrete scenes
usually lasting only 6 to 20 seconds; together the hundreds of individual
scenes combine to make up the movie. For each shot the director has
many options on how to film the same. For example, imagine that the
movie's script calls for two actors to speak a fixed dialogue in a specified
location. Even while the director stays true to the script, he has
considerable leeway in how to film the scene. He may film an "—extreme
long shot', with the camera far away. This tends to show the setting in a
panorama, emphasizing the background while underplaying the actors, and
is used primarily in outdoor scenes where the backdrop is particularly
impressive. Or, he may employ the "—long shot', which brings the camera
close enough to capture the actor's entire bodies, together with some of
the setting. And finally there is the "—close-up', where the camera is brought
in close enough to focus on the actors' heads and faces and has the effect
of spotlighting a particular actor while hiding the setting and other actors.

Camera "—angling' refers to the camera's height from the ground and thus
the vertical angle from which the audience views the action. The most
common angle is filmed at adult eye level, though some artistic films for or
about children can capture a child's-eye view of the world by filming from a
child's eye level, looking up at most things. Similarly, even ordinary films
can switch to "—low angle view' by occasionally lowering the camera to look
upwards at a character or building. The low-angle format suggests that the
object or character is somehow larger, grander and more dominant or
intimidating. In contrast the "—high angle shot' positions the camera to look
down on a character which often suggest that he is inferior, powerless, or
in trouble. A "—side by side' shot of two characters suggest that they are
equal in importance, while filming one character as seen over the shoulder
of another emphasises that character, while reminding the audiences that
he is being observed or heard.

The passage discussion most clearly suggests that the most important aspect
of filmmaking is

A. figuring out what moviegoers are going to love
B. deciding how to make a movie artistic
C. using a good director
D. signing a top actor for the lead role
E. having excellent music

[spoiler]OA: C
RC99: "TheÂ secondÂ paragraphÂ clearlyÂ tellsÂ usÂ thatÂ itÂ isÂ theÂ directorÂ whoÂ
decidesÂ whatÂ shotÂ toÂ takeÂ orÂ whatÂ angleÂ toÂ use.Â ThisÂ makesÂ hiringÂ aÂ
goodÂ 'director'Â theÂ mostÂ
importantÂ aspectÂ ofÂ filmmaking.Â 'C'Â sumsÂ itÂ upÂ veryÂ well."Â [/spoiler]

Really? Where in Para 2 does it CLEARLY state that it is a GOOD director who
decides the shot? The only parts that mention directors in para 2:
"For each shot the director has many options on how to film the same."
"Even while the director stays true to the script, he has considerable leeway in
how to film the scene."

Really? So this is the CLEARLY STATED response on why using a good director
is the most important aspect of film making? Are we assuming that there's no
cameraman or cinematographer? (Btw, they-along with producer$-would be
offended from the OA to this question). There's nothing in paragraph 2 that
states what a GOOD director does compared to a bad one so the term "GOOD"
is relative too. Speaking of para 2, doesn't the sentence--"The most common
angle is filmed at adult eye level, though some ARTISTIC films for or about
children can capture a child's-eye view.."--indicate that the camera angles are
performed in an ARTISTIC technique that varies depending on which view you
want to capture? Lets look at para 1: "But movie industry workers, and even
film connoisseurs, can attest to the contribution of the movie's "—cinematics',
or technical features, towards creating any movie's atmosphere." This is the
"point" of the paragraph! And why in the world is RC99 pointing to an overall
passage question to something that was heavily discussed (specific) in para 2?
An overall passage question (like most OG Reading comp Q's) are all
encompassing or have heavy emphasis in Para 1. Let's not forget where para 3
discusses camera angles--omitting any reference of a director's "good" decisions.
I get leery when an answer justification for OVERALL PASSAGE points to just
one middle paragraph on long reading comps.

According to the passage, a children's film with three alternative shots
showing a mother scolding her small daughter, the daughter, and the father
who is secretly listening, would most likely be filmed using which sequence of
camera angles?

A. "—low angle', "—high angle' and "—over the shoulder'
B. "—low angle', "—low angle', and "—high angle'
C. "—high angle', "—high angle', and "—over the shoulder'
D. "—over the shoulder,' high angle', and "—low angle'
E. "—high angle', "—low angle' and "—low angle'

[spoiler]OA: A.Â
RC99: SinceÂ theÂ fatherÂ isÂ secretlyÂ listeningÂ 'overÂ theÂ shoulder'Â angleÂ
isÂ probablyÂ theÂ bestÂ whichÂ bringsÂ usÂ toÂ optionsÂ AÂ andÂ C.Â IdeallyÂ theÂ motherÂ
shouldÂ beÂ shotÂ inÂ theÂ 'highÂ angle'Â toÂ makeÂ herÂ lookÂ moreÂ threatening.Â Thus
Â 'A'Â isÂ theÂ bestÂ answer.Â TheÂ ideaÂ isÂ toÂ showÂ theÂ monsterÂ asÂ hugeÂ soÂ aÂ high
angleÂ sotÂ wouldÂ workÂ best.Â AlsoitÂ needsÂ toÂ beÂ inÂ longÂ shotÂ soÂ asÂ toÂ beÂ ableÂ toÂ
captureÂ bothÂ theÂ loversÂ asÂ wellÂ asÂ theÂ monster.Â 'B'Â capturesÂ thisÂ reallyÂ well.Â [/spoiler]

I got it down to both letters that the OA is referring too. However, once
again... very ambiguous as to what the camera guy is trying to do. Is
the movie trying to emphasize that the child is small (just like how they
were trying to emphasize a BIG monster)? If yes, than it's a low angle
shot. If they are trying to emphasize a "dominant" mother then it's high
angle. "Ideally the mother should be shot in the 'high angle' to
make her look more threatening." --Ideally?! Ideally? Are you serious?!
The correct answer choices on the real GMAT (esp verbal) should not be
this debatable. Hence, why I'm questioning RC99. Call it personal bias,
but I don't see suspect answer choices on the OG (yes, I know, it's an
"official" guide). [/spoiler][/b]

Last edited by thp510 on Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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thp510: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 48; Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:35 pmFollowed by: 1 member; Thanked: 1 times

by thp510 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:38 am

Opps, I mean the following:

I got it down to both letters that the OA is referring too. However, once again... very ambiguous as to what the camera guy is trying to do. Is the movie trying to emphasize that the child is small (just like how they were trying to emphasize a BIG monster)? If yes, than it's a LOW angle shot. If they are trying to emphasize a "dominant" mother then it's HIGH angle. "Ideally the mother should be shot in the Ã¢â‚¬Ëœhigh angleÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ to make her look more threatening." --Ideally?! Ideally? Are you serious?! The correct answer choices on the real GMAT (esp verbal) should not be this debatable. Hence, why I'm questioning RC99. Call it personal bias, but I don't see suspect answer choices on the OG (yes, I know, it's an "official" guide). [/spoiler][/b]

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msrrautela: Junior | Next Rank: 30 Posts; Posts: 21; Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:05 am; Thanked: 1 times

by msrrautela » Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:46 am

Phew! thp510. You directly copy pasted the question here without even formatting it. Request you to edit your post so that it becomes more readable.

It seems to be running east to west for miles

It's a dawg eat dawg world!

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thp510: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 48; Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:35 pmFollowed by: 1 member; Thanked: 1 times

by thp510 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:52 am

Sorry. Redone.

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Paulrichards: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 40; Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:27 amFollowed by: 2 members; Thanked: 7 times

by Paulrichards » Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:14 am

Hmmm I'm not going to get into why the answers are what they are 'coz they are way too obvious but I think i see what the problem is now. Two things that I think are bogging you down:

1) You expect the answers to be 'clearly stated' - We are talking GMAT passages and not those on some school test that the answer will be clearly stated in the passage. Most questions on the GMAT are Inference questions where you need to understand the subtle references made in specific lines in the passage. Also, and this holds true for SC and CR as well, the GMAT doesn't ask you for the perfect answer but the best answer from the options given. Just see if you can justify any other answer than the OAs in the above 2 questions and you'll get my point. Mostly on difficult questions the best way to arrive at the answer is through elimination and not by hunting for the perfect answer.

2) I get the feeling that you are thinking too much while answering questions and even more while going through the explanations trying to justify your answer. I don't know how you have prepared for RC but 'm guessing you haven't gone through any strategy book as such and have directly started with the RC99. I'd suggest you first go through maybe the Manhattan RC guide which will provide you a framework in which to approach RC passages on the GMAT. It'll also give you some idea of the question types that are tested on the GMAT and how to tackle each type. In case you don't wanna buy the Manhattan RC book you could even find a lot of free content discussing RC strategies on these forums. Try the passages after you've gone through some of these strategies and then you might see the answers making more sense.

I'm not trying to sound preachy (I apologize if it sounds that way), just trying to help 'coz RC is one of the major problem areas on the GMAT and a lot of it is because of the wrong approach to passages.

Cheers.

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Adam@Knewton: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 132; Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:26 pmFollowed by: 37 members; Location: New York City; Thanked: 68 times; GMAT Score:780

by Adam@Knewton » Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:17 pm

thp510 wrote:The passage discussion most clearly suggests that the most important aspect
of filmmaking is

A. figuring out what moviegoers are going to love
B. deciding how to make a movie artistic
C. using a good director
D. signing a top actor for the lead role
E. having excellent music

[spoiler]OA: C
RC99: "The second paragraph clearly tells us that it is the director who
decides what shot to take or what angle to use. This makes hiring a
good 'director' the most
important aspect of filmmaking. 'C' sums it up very well." [/spoiler]

Really? Where in Para 2 does it CLEARLY state that it is a GOOD director who
decides the shot? The only parts that mention directors in para 2:
"For each shot the director has many options on how to film the same."
"Even while the director stays true to the script, he has considerable leeway in
how to film the scene."

Really? So this is the CLEARLY STATED response on why using a good director
is the most important aspect of film making? Are we assuming that there's no
cameraman or cinematographer? (Btw, they-along with producer$-would be
offended from the OA to this question). There's nothing in paragraph 2 that
states what a GOOD director does compared to a bad one so the term "GOOD"
is relative too. Speaking of para 2, doesn't the sentence--"The most common
angle is filmed at adult eye level, though some ARTISTIC films for or about
children can capture a child's-eye view.."--indicate that the camera angles are
performed in an ARTISTIC technique that varies depending on which view you
want to capture? Lets look at para 1: "But movie industry workers, and even
film connoisseurs, can attest to the contribution of the movie's "—cinematics',
or technical features, towards creating any movie's atmosphere." This is the
"point" of the paragraph! And why in the world is RC99 pointing to an overall
passage question to something that was heavily discussed (specific) in para 2?
An overall passage question (like most OG Reading comp Q's) are all
encompassing or have heavy emphasis in Para 1. Let's not forget where para 3
discusses camera angles--omitting any reference of a director's "good" decisions.
I get leery when an answer justification for OVERALL PASSAGE points to just
one middle paragraph on long reading comps.

I actually agree that this question isn't fully justified by the passage: in fact, the first paragraph directly implies that "cinematics" are a significant "contribution" in addition to "acting direct, special effects, and script," and never makes any judgment as to which of these is more important than the others. The author thinks that good direction is underrated by most moviegoers, but not necessarily the "most important aspect" of filmmaking.

That being said, after reading this passage, what else could we possibly pick? (A), (D), and (E) are completely out of scope. (B) talks about "deciding" what's artistic, which is the opposite of the execution that this entire passage is focused on. (C), meanwhile, is exactly what the passage is primarily talking about throughout. This is why others have called it "easy" -- they aren't reading it carefully but quickly seeing the right answer and jumping on it and moving on.

Furthermore, remember that the GMAT determines what makes a question "easy" or "hard" or "acceptable" or "unacceptable" based only on how people answer it. If almost everybody who sees this question picks (C), and if more people pick (C) as they get higher and higher in overall score (a steady curve on a graph, which is what they look for), then the answer is (C), whether we like it or not. The GMAT uses statistics and algorithms to determine the legitimacy of an answer, not formal logic or argumentation, and we'd do well to keep that in mind. Any question you see on test day HAS been vetted by the test-taking population and by the enormously powerful GMAT algorithm (unless it's experimental, in which case it doesn't matter), so we should practice, when we are practicing, assuming this to be the case.

I am not familiar with all of the RC99 passages so I won't speak to its reliability here. However, one of the challenges of GMAT prep is learning when it is worthwhile to nitpick, on RC and CR alike, and when it's not and we should accept an answer that isn't ideal, but is still somehow the "right" answer. Personally, I used to struggle a lot on RC, throughout my childhood, but since I've learned it properly I almost never get them wrong. I often find myself looking at a question and thinking, "(B) should be the right answer, but I know that the GMAT would think (D) is actually right." And sure enough, it ends up being (D). This is the place you want to get to, and even if RC99 passages are sometimes flawed, practice this kind of thinking with them now so it's easier to adapt on test day.

Prep Smarter, Score Higher
www.knewton.com

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msrrautela: Junior | Next Rank: 30 Posts; Posts: 21; Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:05 am; Thanked: 1 times

by msrrautela » Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:12 am

AdamKnewton wrote:
Furthermore, remember that the GMAT determines what makes a question "easy" or "hard" or "acceptable" or "unacceptable" based only on how people answer it. If almost everybody who sees this question picks (C), and if more people pick (C) as they get higher and higher in overall score (a steady curve on a graph, which is what they look for), then the answer is (C), whether we like it or not. The GMAT uses statistics and algorithms to determine the legitimacy of an answer, not formal logic or argumentation, and we'd do well to keep that in mind. Any question you see on test day HAS been vetted by the test-taking population and by the enormously powerful GMAT algorithm (unless it's experimental, in which case it doesn't matter), so we should practice, when we are practicing, assuming this to be the case.

I am not familiar with all of the RC99 passages so I won't speak to its reliability here. However, one of the challenges of GMAT prep is learning when it is worthwhile to nitpick, on RC and CR alike, and when it's not and we should accept an answer that isn't ideal, but is still somehow the "right" answer. Personally, I used to struggle a lot on RC, throughout my childhood, but since I've learned it properly I almost never get them wrong. I often find myself looking at a question and thinking, "(B) should be the right answer, but I know that the GMAT would think (D) is actually right." And sure enough, it ends up being (D). This is the place you want to get to, and even if RC99 passages are sometimes flawed, practice this kind of thinking with them now so it's easier to adapt on test day.

@Adam
I couldn't agree with you more! Very insightful analysis. The questions on the RC are not designed to test you on semantics but on your analytical ability. Probably the passages on the LSAT maybe more about semantics(that's what the lawyers are expected to

) but certainly not those you see on the GMAT.
I also liked that you gave a very unbiased analysis instead of taking an opportunity to be critical about some other Test Prep company's material .

It's a dawg eat dawg world!

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thp510: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 48; Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:35 pmFollowed by: 1 member; Thanked: 1 times

by thp510 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:23 am

msrrautela wrote:
@Adam
I couldn't agree with you more! Very insightful analysis. The questions on the RC are not designed to test you on semantics but on your analytical ability. Probably the passages on the LSAT maybe more about semantics(that's what the lawyers are expected to ) but certainly not those you see on the GMAT.
I also liked that you gave a very unbiased analysis instead of taking an opportunity to be critical about some other Test Prep company's material .

Thanks Adam for your input.

@Msrrautela: I don't see why you feel offended about my criticisms of a test prep company's material. Everyone should have the best test prep material out there to beat this test. Otherwise people are going to pay an exuberant amount of money or spend wasted time for a company that's not well received (albeit RC99 only cost $15). I welcome criticism on all test prep material, esp on message boards such as BTG where it's the perfect medium to sound off on things you might not agree with. I apologize if I have offended you and others in criticizing RC99. I wasn't expecting this much defense on RC99!

@Paul: Same apology as well. I'm actually reading through MGMAT RC and that's why I posted these questions. I'm going to paraphrase a few key tips out of the book that stuck with me while reading Passage 18.

* The POINT is the most important judgement made by the author about the central content of the passage. If you're stuck between two answer choices about a general/main idea question, than go with the answer choice that relates to the first paragraph more than others.
* On inference questions, infer as little as possible. Eliminate answer choices that require any logical stretch or leap. You should be able to actually point to the part in the passage that rephrase the language. Remember, infer is just "something stated just a tiny bit differently"--don't make assumptions (or don't actually INFER based on the true definition of INFER).

Maybe that's why I was so adamant about finding the right choice, since I'm strictly sticking to the MGMAT's RC guide. Of course, this might come back and bite me at the end if I can't adapt to different techniques or styles. Either way, I'm taking your advice and I'm going to continue to read RC99. If I have any questions, I'll post them up and hopefully people can refute my analysis and confirm RC99's OA choices.

Thanks everyone for your help. I appreciate the feedback and dialog.

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msrrautela: Junior | Next Rank: 30 Posts; Posts: 21; Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:05 am; Thanked: 1 times

by msrrautela » Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:56 am

@thp510
I agree with you completely that everything is open to critical analysis here. I just provided my 2 cents as I am using the book and didn't think that your opinion was entirely correct. I don't even know what you're apologizing for because why would I feel offended at all.

We're all here to beat the GMAT and need to make sure that we help each other out in every possible way

Let's rock the GMAT!

It's a dawg eat dawg world!

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patanjali.purpose: Legendary Member; Posts: 784; Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:51 amFollowed by: 12 members; Thanked: 114 times

by patanjali.purpose » Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:28 pm

Adam@Knewton wrote:
thp510 wrote:The passage discussion most clearly suggests that the most important aspect
of filmmaking is

A. figuring out what moviegoers are going to love
B. deciding how to make a movie artistic
C. using a good director
D. signing a top actor for the lead role
E. having excellent music

That being said, after reading this passage, what else could we possibly pick? (A), (D), and (E) are completely out of scope. (B) talks about "deciding" what's artistic, which is the opposite of the execution that this entire passage is focused on. (C), meanwhile, is exactly what the passage is primarily talking about throughout. This is why others have called it "easy" -- they aren't reading it carefully but quickly seeing the right answer and jumping on it and moving on.

Personally, I used to struggle a lot on RC, throughout my childhood, but since I've learned it properly I almost never get them wrong. I often find myself looking at a question and thinking, "(B) should be the right answer, but I know that the GMAT would think (D) is actually right." And sure enough, it ends up being (D). This is the place you want to get to, and even if RC99 passages are sometimes flawed, practice this kind of thinking with them now so it's easier to adapt on test day.
Hi Adam,

Thanks. Could you pls elaborate on 2 key points you mentioned:

1) difference between 'deciding' and 'executing'. Have you mentioned 'executing' bcoz passage talks about different ways to make different shots & angles. In other words, Since the passage is more descriptive than decisive, do you suggest 'deciding' may not be the right choice
2) how to get into the zone in which I mark what GMAT thinks as right or pick what most test takers pick (2nd bold statement you made above)

Pls help

Patanjali

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Adam@Knewton: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 132; Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:26 pmFollowed by: 37 members; Location: New York City; Thanked: 68 times; GMAT Score:780

by Adam@Knewton » Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:44 am

Hi Patanjali;

"Deciding" is making the decision to do something, which is what this passage discusses. "Execution" is the actual carrying out of that plan. Perhaps simpler words would be better here: "Planning" (the passage) vs. "Doing" (choice C).

Hope that clarifies it!

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