"relations between X "or "relation between on

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manasnanu: Junior | Next Rank: 30 Posts; Posts: 13; Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:21 am; Location: India; Thanked: 1 times

by manasnanu » Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:35 am

254. Dr. Sayre’s lecture recounted several little-known episodes in the relations between nations that illustrates what is wrong with alliances and treaties that do not have popular support.
(A) relations between nations that illustrates
(B) relation of one nation with another that illustrates
(C) relations between nations that illustrate
(D) relation of one nation with another and illustrate
(E) relations of nations that illustrates

Can somebody tell whether to use relations between nations or relation of one nation with another

let me give the power of perseverance.............

Source: Beat The GMAT — Sentence Correction | Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:35 am

barron: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 72; Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:49 am

by barron » Thu May 08, 2008 5:55 am

I choose D

A and C are discounted because of between
this word should specify relations among nations

E is wrong because of 'of nations'

B is wrong because of 'illustrates'
it should be plural

is this answer correct?

answer.1000.sc: Newbie | Next Rank: 10 Posts; Posts: 4; Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 1:55 pm

by answer.1000.sc » Thu May 08, 2008 2:08 pm

OA IS WRONG.... corrrect answer should be C

what is confusing here is sorting out the SUBJECT

in such cases.... find the verb first (illustrates/illustrate here) and then ask what illustrates/illustrate???

the EPISODES ILLUSTRATE

*if this doesnt sound convincing

here's another way to rule out in the relations between nations is Adjective preposition phrase modifiying episodes

Manhat SC guide says remove mid modifier....

so again.... EPISODES...ILLUSTRATE

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answer.1000.sc: Newbie | Next Rank: 10 Posts; Posts: 4; Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 1:55 pm

by answer.1000.sc » Thu May 08, 2008 2:09 pm

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answer.1000.sc: Newbie | Next Rank: 10 Posts; Posts: 4; Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 1:55 pm

by answer.1000.sc » Thu May 08, 2008 2:15 pm

As for between vs among discussion, there is no concrete rule. Check this from bartleby.com:

It is often argued that between should be used to express a relationship involving two of something, and among should express relationships involving three or more, but in fact that generalization does not describe the way English has long used these prepositions. Between can be used of as many items as you like if the relationship is one-to-one, however much it may be repeated with different partners: Economic relations between Great Britain, France, and Italy [or between some members of the EEC] are tense at present. Among works with any plural number above two

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netigen: Legendary Member; Posts: 631; Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:57 pmFollowed by: 3 members; Thanked: 29 times

by netigen » Thu May 08, 2008 2:24 pm

Answer should be C

1. subject verb agreement demands we use "illustrate" so discount A and B and we are left with C, D and E
2. within C,D and E choices C is correct because of the correct idiom between X and Y

Remember, between is used when you want to show one to one relation and among is used when you want to show one to many relationship. In this case the usage is one to one.

More on this (Sumit's note):

Among v/s Between: The simple rule will rarely fail you: use ‘between’ for two things, among for more than two, but that generalization does not describe the way English has long used these prepositions. ‘Between’ can be used of as many items as you like if the relationship is one-to-one, however much it may be repeated with different partners: Economic relations between Great Britain, France, and Italy [or between some members of the EEC] are tense at present.
‘Among’ works with any plural number above two. When we're talking about a one-to-one relationship between two groups, ‘between’ is correct. Now imagine we still have those relationships, but multiplied. For example, diplomatic relations between countries or friendships between people.
Notice how the meaning would change for these:
• Friendships among people. (Sounds like it could be a three-way friendship.)
• Friendships between people.
• Relations between countries.
• Relations among countries. (Three-way (or more) again.)

gurudev: Junior | Next Rank: 30 Posts; Posts: 29; Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:00 am; Thanked: 1 times

by gurudev » Sat Aug 02, 2008 12:52 pm

My Pick is also C. One main Reason was "Episodes" match with "illustrate".

But it may also be the case that "illustrate" refers to the "Lecture". I am a bit confused on this. Please help!!

sprony: Junior | Next Rank: 30 Posts; Posts: 13; Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:11 am; Location: Providence, RI; Thanked: 2 times

Re: "relations between X "or "relation betwee

by sprony » Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:34 pm

manasnanu wrote:254. Dr. Sayre’s lecture recounted several little-known episodes in the relations between nations that illustrates what is wrong with alliances and treaties that do not have popular support.
(A) relations between nations that illustrates
(B) relation of one nation with another that illustrates
(C) relations between nations that illustrate
(D) relation of one nation with another and illustrate
(E) relations of nations that illustrates

Can somebody tell whether to use relations between nations or relation of one nation with another

"Relations between nations" would be the correct usage.

The word 'Relation' usually means relative - so IMO it is 'relations' that should be used here.

Also, the usage 'relation of' is awkward - one should say 'relations between'

As for illustrate:
'illustrate' is talking about the episodes. Since it is the episodes that are illustrating.
To put it another way:
Remove the clause "in the relations between nations" - and you are left with:
Dr. Sayre’s lecture recounted several little-known episodes that illustrates ....
this should make it clear that 'illustrates' is wrong, and it should be 'illustrate'.

~~~
I'll have the 800 score, please.

GMAT/MBA Expert

Stacey Koprince: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 2228; Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 3:28 pmFollowed by: 694 members; Location: Montreal, Canada; Thanked: 639 times; GMAT Score:780

by Stacey Koprince » Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:03 pm

Someone sent me a PM asking me to resolve a question about the correct answer here. The original post doesn't mention an OA, as far as I can tell, and then someone else says the OA is wrong and should be C. So I don't know what the original document says is the OA - but I can say that I have seen 1000SC questions before in which the OA is wrong. That's one of the reasons I don't like this source.

You have two options for nouns to go with illustrate/s: lecture or episodes. (Yes, I know neither one touches the "that" directly!)

"lecture" doesn't make logical sense - that's not what illustrates what is wrong with alliances, etc. And it's good that "lecture" doesn't make logical sense because, structurally, you can't pair that with illustrate/s.

"episodes" does make logical sense and this is one of the rare circumstances in which the main noun that matches with "that illustrate/s" isn't directly touching "that." It's got a couple of short prepositional phrases following it that are necessary in order to understand the basic meaning of "episodes."

So the "episodes that illustrate..."
eliminate A, B, and E.

D changes the word "that" to "and." Is that okay? No - it changes the meaning of the sentence. Now you're saying:
The lecture recounted X and (the lecture) illustrate Y. That's both grammatically wrong and, again, changes the original meaning.

So we're left with C.

Notice that I didn't have to deal with the "relations between nations" vs. "relation of one nation with another" issue. If you wanted to use a phrase like the latter, you'd say "relation of one nation to another."

Please note: I do not use the Private Messaging system! I will not see any PMs that you send to me!!

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