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Correct use of which

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Correct use of which

by vaibhav.iit2002 » Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:02 am
As we know that when 'which' is used after comma, it should modify immediately preceding noun. Here are two examples from OG:

Ron's letters to Mary, which were written over a period of beginning a few years before Susan's marriage and ending to Emily's brother and ending shortly before Emily's death in 1886, outnumber her letters to anyone else.

Because of plunging prices for computer chips, which is due to an oversupply, the manufacturer has announced that it will cut production.

Is use of which correct here?
Last edited by vaibhav.iit2002 on Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by LifetimesofSC » Thu Oct 15, 2009 11:49 am
both incorrect
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by ithoughtshewas18 » Thu Oct 15, 2009 2:00 pm
LifetimesofSC wrote:both incorrect
thank you for your helpful and informative post.
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by vaibhav.iit2002 » Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:14 pm
LifetimesofSC wrote:both incorrect
According to OG, first sentence is correct and second is wrong because -
"because which refers to plural 'prices', it should be followed by are, not is" - hence 'which' is used correctly.

Plz help as this is a very big issue.
I have seen many times in Manhattan tests this concept and have learned that we can eliminate such options.
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by vaibhav.iit2002 » Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:16 pm
These are problems 26, 33 of OG-12
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by vaibhav.iit2002 » Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:09 am
Plz respond, exam in few days

Ron, can u help plz?
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Re: Correct use of which

by crackgmat007 » Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:57 pm
vaibhav.iit2002 wrote:As we know that when 'which' is used after comma, it should modify immediately preceding noun. Here are two examples from OG:

Ron's letters to Mary, which were written over a period of beginning a few years before Susan's marriage and ending to Emily's brother and ending shortly before Emily's death in 1886, outnumber her letters to anyone else.

Because of plunging prices for computer chips, which is due to an oversupply, the manufacturer has announced that it will cut production.

Is use of which correct here?
Not an expert, but I will try to explain.

Ron's LETTERS to Mary - Note that Letters is being modified by prep phrase 'to Mary'. Which correctly refers to the whole noun phrase 'Letters to Mary'. Same explanation holds good for second example. Which refers to noun phrase 'plunging prices for computer chips'

HTH
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Re: Correct use of which

by vaibhav.iit2002 » Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:48 pm
crackgmat007 wrote:
vaibhav.iit2002 wrote:As we know that when 'which' is used after comma, it should modify immediately preceding noun. Here are two examples from OG:

Ron's letters to Mary, which were written over a period of beginning a few years before Susan's marriage and ending to Emily's brother and ending shortly before Emily's death in 1886, outnumber her letters to anyone else.

Because of plunging prices for computer chips, which is due to an oversupply, the manufacturer has announced that it will cut production.

Is use of which correct here?
Not an expert, but I will try to explain.

Ron's LETTERS to Mary - Note that Letters is being modified by prep phrase 'to Mary'. Which correctly refers to the whole noun phrase 'Letters to Mary'. Same explanation holds good for second example. Which refers to noun phrase 'plunging prices for computer chips'

HTH
But I guess Manhattan says 'which' can modify preceding noun and not phrase. :(
isn't that true?
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Re: Correct use of which

by crackgmat007 » Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:31 pm
vaibhav.iit2002 wrote:
crackgmat007 wrote:
vaibhav.iit2002 wrote:As we know that when 'which' is used after comma, it should modify immediately preceding noun. Here are two examples from OG:

Ron's letters to Mary, which were written over a period of beginning a few years before Susan's marriage and ending to Emily's brother and ending shortly before Emily's death in 1886, outnumber her letters to anyone else.

Because of plunging prices for computer chips, which is due to an oversupply, the manufacturer has announced that it will cut production.

Is use of which correct here?
Not an expert, but I will try to explain.

Ron's LETTERS to Mary - Note that Letters is being modified by prep phrase 'to Mary'. Which correctly refers to the whole noun phrase 'Letters to Mary'. Same explanation holds good for second example. Which refers to noun phrase 'plunging prices for computer chips'

HTH
But I guess Manhattan says 'which' can modify preceding noun and not phrase. :(
isn't that true?
I saw in the guide that 'which' refers to noun but cannot refer to an entire clause. Also, applying the above rule learnt based on OG explanations (in some cases), I could weed out incorrect choices.

Can you pls tell me which page # in MGMAT SC guide? I want to make sure I dint miss anything
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Re: Correct use of which

by vaibhav.iit2002 » Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:59 pm
crackgmat007 wrote:
I saw in the guide that 'which' refers to noun but cannot refer to an entire clause. Also, applying the above rule learnt based on OG explanations (in some cases), I could weed out incorrect choices.

Can you pls tell me which page # in MGMAT SC guide? I want to make sure I dint miss anything
I found this concept in one og MGMAT CATS, not in guide.

Do you mean that which can modify noun or phrase but not entire clause?
Plz tell me the page no. of Manhattan guide where you read this concept. I'll clear my doubt :)
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Re: Correct use of which

by crackgmat007 » Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:12 pm
vaibhav.iit2002 wrote:
crackgmat007 wrote:
I saw in the guide that 'which' refers to noun but cannot refer to an entire clause. Also, applying the above rule learnt based on OG explanations (in some cases), I could weed out incorrect choices.

Can you pls tell me which page # in MGMAT SC guide? I want to make sure I dint miss anything
I found this concept in one og MGMAT CATS, not in guide.

Do you mean that which can modify noun or phrase but not entire clause?
Plz tell me the page no. of Manhattan guide where you read this concept. I'll clear my doubt :)
Guide states noun but not to an entire clause. Although it doesnt explicitly rule out noun phrase, OG examples suggest so.

Refer to Pg 109 - Chapter 6
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Re: Correct use of which

by vaibhav.iit2002 » Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:18 pm
crackgmat007 wrote:
vaibhav.iit2002 wrote:
crackgmat007 wrote:
I saw in the guide that 'which' refers to noun but cannot refer to an entire clause. Also, applying the above rule learnt based on OG explanations (in some cases), I could weed out incorrect choices.

Can you pls tell me which page # in MGMAT SC guide? I want to make sure I dint miss anything
I found this concept in one og MGMAT CATS, not in guide.

Do you mean that which can modify noun or phrase but not entire clause?
Plz tell me the page no. of Manhattan guide where you read this concept. I'll clear my doubt :)
Guide states noun but not to an entire clause. Although it doesnt explicitly rule out noun phrase, OG examples suggest so.

Refer to Pg 109 - Chapter 6
Your explanation makes sense :)
Will try this in future problems. Thanks
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by lunarpower » Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:37 am
the gmat tends to write sentences in which "which" or "who" stands for the ELIGIBLE noun / noun phrase that's closest to the comma.
by "eligible", i mean that the noun has to
* AGREE IN TERMS OF SINGULAR/PLURAL with the FOLLOWING VERB
* AGREE IN TERMS OF PERSON/THING (i.e., no "which" for people, no "who" for things)

here's an example:

the box of nails, which is on the counter, is to be used on this project.

in this case, "which" CANNOT refer to "nails", since the verb "is" is singular. therefore, the nearest eligible noun is "box (of nails)". so, "which" unambiguously stands for that.

in our observation, the gmat has been VERY good about this.
whenever i've seen a "which"/"who" that refers to "X + preposition + Y" rather than just Y, it has ALWAYS been the case that X was singular and Y was plural (or X was plural and Y was singular), and the verb had a form that matched X and didn't match Y.

--

so, in your example:
Ron's letters to Mary, which were written...

in this example, "mary" is ineligible for two different reasons: mary is a person, not a thing (so "which" is wrong), and "mary" is singular (so "were" is wrong).
either of these makes "mary" ineligible to be the antecedent of "which".
so the antecedent is the noun phrase, "ron's letters to mary".



hope that helps.
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

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by vaibhav.iit2002 » Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:51 am
lunarpower wrote:the gmat tends to write sentences in which "which" or "who" stands for the ELIGIBLE noun / noun phrase that's closest to the comma.
by "eligible", i mean that the noun has to
* AGREE IN TERMS OF SINGULAR/PLURAL with the FOLLOWING VERB
* AGREE IN TERMS OF PERSON/THING (i.e., no "which" for people, no "who" for things)

here's an example:

the box of nails, which is on the counter, is to be used on this project.

in this case, "which" CANNOT refer to "nails", since the verb "is" is singular. therefore, the nearest eligible noun is "box (of nails)". so, "which" unambiguously stands for that.

in our observation, the gmat has been VERY good about this.
whenever i've seen a "which"/"who" that refers to "X + preposition + Y" rather than just Y, it has ALWAYS been the case that X was singular and Y was plural (or X was plural and Y was singular), and the verb had a form that matched X and didn't match Y.

--

so, in your example:
Ron's letters to Mary, which were written...

in this example, "mary" is ineligible for two different reasons: mary is a person, not a thing (so "which" is wrong), and "mary" is singular (so "were" is wrong).
either of these makes "mary" ineligible to be the antecedent of "which".
so the antecedent is the noun phrase, "ron's letters to mary".



hope that helps.
Thanks a lot Ron.
It makes 101% sense. :)

Ron, do the rules for which/who are also valid for 'that'? If not plz provide the rule for use of 'that'
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by lunarpower » Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:55 pm
Ron, do the rules for which/who are also valid for 'that'? If not plz provide the rule for use of 'that'
you have more leeway with "that". (also remember that there are tons of different uses of "that"; i'm talking about the use of "that" as a relative pronoun, in a role analogous to "which" but without a comma.)

"that" is usually used in a way similar to the way "which" is used, but there's more of a tolerance for inserting intervening constructions, such as small clauses, between the noun and "that".

for instance, there have been official problems to which the correct answers have been built like the following: (these are not the actual problems - i can't reproduce those - but they are built the same way)
* a chemical has been discovered that will revolutionize the petroleum-processing industry.
* the chemists have discovered a way of processing crude oil into useful petroleum extracts that has the potential to revolutionize the industry.
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

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Pueden hacerle preguntas a Ron en castellano
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Voit esittää kysymyksiä Ron:lle myös suomeksi

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