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Correct use of which

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by vaibhav.iit2002 » Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:19 pm
@Ron
Thanks a lot for your help.
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by crackgmat007 » Sat Oct 17, 2009 8:05 pm
Ron,

Quick question in the below example
the box of nails, which is on the counter, is to be used on this project.
vs

the box of nails, which are on the counter, is to be used on this project.

If question tests singular vs plural (is vs are), how do we deduce what 'which' is referring to? Do we need to go by meaning & context?
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by heshamelaziry » Sat Oct 17, 2009 9:50 pm
lunarpower wrote:
Ron, do the rules for which/who are also valid for 'that'? If not plz provide the rule for use of 'that'
you have more leeway with "that". (also remember that there are tons of different uses of "that"; i'm talking about the use of "that" as a relative pronoun, in a role analogous to "which" but without a comma.)

"that" is usually used in a way similar to the way "which" is used, but there's more of a tolerance for inserting intervening constructions, such as small clauses, between the noun and "that".

for instance, there have been official problems to which the correct answers have been built like the following: (these are not the actual problems - i can't reproduce those - but they are built the same way)
* a chemical has been discovered that will revolutionize the petroleum-processing industry.
* the chemists have discovered a way of processing crude oil into useful petroleum extracts that has the potential to revolutionize the industry.
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by heshamelaziry » Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:26 pm
lunarpower wrote:
Ron, do the rules for which/who are also valid for 'that'? If not plz provide the rule for use of 'that'
you have more leeway with "that". (also remember that there are tons of different uses of "that"; i'm talking about the use of "that" as a relative pronoun, in a role analogous to "which" but without a comma.)

"that" is usually used in a way similar to the way "which" is used, but there's more of a tolerance for inserting intervening constructions, such as small clauses, between the noun and "that".

for instance, there have been official problems to which the correct answers have been built like the following: (these are not the actual problems - i can't reproduce those - but they are built the same way)
* a chemical has been discovered that will revolutionize the petroleum-processing industry.
* the chemists have discovered a way of processing crude oil into useful petroleum extracts that has the potential to revolutionize the industry.
Can I use "which" in the first example to refer to "Chemical" ?

Can I use "which" in the second example to refer to "petroleum extracts" ?
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by heshamelaziry » Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:30 pm
lunarpower wrote:
Ron, do the rules for which/who are also valid for 'that'? If not plz provide the rule for use of 'that'
you have more leeway with "that". (also remember that there are tons of different uses of "that"; i'm talking about the use of "that" as a relative pronoun, in a role analogous to "which" but without a comma.)

"that" is usually used in a way similar to the way "which" is used, but there's more of a tolerance for inserting intervening constructions, such as small clauses, between the noun and "that".

for instance, there have been official problems to which the correct answers have been built like the following: (these are not the actual problems - i can't reproduce those - but they are built the same way)
* a chemical has been discovered that will revolutionize the petroleum-processing industry.
* the chemists have discovered a way of processing crude oil into useful petroleum extracts that has the potential to revolutionize the industry.

Can I use "which" in the first example to refer to "Chemical" ?

Can I use "which" in the second example to refer to "petroleum extracts" ?
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by vaibhav.iit2002 » Sun Oct 18, 2009 5:35 am
heshamelaziry wrote:Can I use "which" in the first example to refer to "Chemical" ?

Can I use "which" in the second example to refer to "petroleum extracts" ?
IMO we cant use which in 1st sentence but can use it in 2nd one as there is no plural of which.

Plz correct me if i am wrong.
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by vaibhav.iit2002 » Sun Oct 18, 2009 5:37 am
crackgmat007 wrote:Ron,

Quick question in the below example
the box of nails, which is on the counter, is to be used on this project.
vs

the box of nails, which are on the counter, is to be used on this project.

If question tests singular vs plural (is vs are), how do we deduce what 'which' is referring to? Do we need to go by meaning & context?
IMO, we'll have to go through context and meaning as there is no direct way to tell whether 'which' is used for box or nails.

Let Ron clarify :)
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by lunarpower » Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:37 am
crackgmat007 wrote: the box of nails, which are on the counter, is to be used on this project.

If question tests singular vs plural (is vs are), how do we deduce what 'which' is referring to? Do we need to go by meaning & context?
this example is absurd in context. if the nails themselves are on the counter, then it follows that they are not in the box. therefore, it would make no sense to speak of a "box of nails".

on the other hand, you could conceivably have a context in which both would make sense:

the pictures of my dog, which was given to me for my birthday... --> i got a dog for my birthday.
the pictures of my dog, which were given to me for my birthday... --> i already had the dog, but someone gave me pictures for my birthday.

with something like this, though, it will be COMPLETELY clear from context which meaning is intended. you will never, ever, get a gmat problem on which the context is vague or undefined.
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

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by lunarpower » Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:39 am
heshamelaziry wrote:
lunarpower wrote:
Ron, do the rules for which/who are also valid for 'that'? If not plz provide the rule for use of 'that'
you have more leeway with "that". (also remember that there are tons of different uses of "that"; i'm talking about the use of "that" as a relative pronoun, in a role analogous to "which" but without a comma.)

"that" is usually used in a way similar to the way "which" is used, but there's more of a tolerance for inserting intervening constructions, such as small clauses, between the noun and "that".

for instance, there have been official problems to which the correct answers have been built like the following: (these are not the actual problems - i can't reproduce those - but they are built the same way)
* a chemical has been discovered that will revolutionize the petroleum-processing industry.
* the chemists have discovered a way of processing crude oil into useful petroleum extracts that has the potential to revolutionize the industry.

Can I use "which" in the first example to refer to "Chemical" ?
not if it's followed by "has been discovered".
you can only use "which" for a NOUN OR NOUN PHRASE. as soon as you've got a verb in there, creating a clause, "which" is dead.

[/quote]Can I use "which" in the second example to refer to "petroleum extracts" ?[/quote]
sure, as long as
* you place a comma before it (you can NEVER use "which" without a preceding comma)
* you change the modifier to something that actually describes petroleum extracts (this modifier, which describes a way, doesn't make sense if applied to petroleum extracts)
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

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