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Melville and Whitman

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Melville and Whitman

by myohmy » Thu May 14, 2009 11:17 am
The author Herman Melville and the poet Walt Whitman are icons of American literature, greatly beloved by generations past and present.

(a) The author Herman Melville and the poet Walt Whitman are icons
(b) Herman Melville the author and Walt Whitman the poet are icons
(c) The author named Herman Melville and the poet named Walt Whitman are great icons
(d) The author, Herman Melville, and the poet, Walt Whitman, are icons
(e) Herman Melville, the author, and Walt Whitman, the poet, had been icons

OA is A, but can someone explain what's wrong with D?
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by Jose Ferreira » Thu May 14, 2009 3:35 pm
As you probably know, if something is set off by commas, then it is removable from the sentence. Like in this sentence:

Terry, the team captain, recorded a triple double.

The phrase "the team captain" is removable from the sentence, but we are still left with a grammatically correct sentence that does not lose the original intention of the sentence's core structure.

Terry recorded a triple double.

In answer D, removing the pieces set off by commas would leave you with:

"The author and the poet are icons"

This clearly misses the point of the sentence. "The author" is not an icon; "the author Herman Melville" is an icon.
Last edited by Jose Ferreira on Mon May 18, 2009 8:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by thetrystero » Thu May 14, 2009 7:58 pm
The author Herman Melville and the poet Walt Whitman are icons of American literature, greatly beloved by generations past and present.

(a) The author Herman Melville and the poet Walt Whitman are icons
(b) Herman Melville the author and Walt Whitman the poet are icons
(c) The author named Herman Melville and the poet named Walt Whitman are great icons
(d) The author, Herman Melville, and the poet, Walt Whitman, are icons
(e) Herman Melville, the author, and Walt Whitman, the poet, had been icons
A sounds good.
E changes meaning.
commas in D look clumsy.
B - is there some rule about proper nouns coming after improper nouns? in any case, A sounds better.
C. "named" seems redundant
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by karmayogi » Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:19 am
I am bouncing back this thread as I am looking for some grammatical rule to differentiate between A and B.

MGMAT says in B, 'The modifiers "the author" and "the poet" for "Herman Melville" and "Walt Whitman" respectively are non-restrictive.' Could someone please explain why/how "the author" and "the poet" are non-restrictive? As per my understanding, when some modifier is seperated by comma or starts with which then that's non-restrictive.
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by Ragingrsx » Sun Sep 06, 2009 7:16 pm
"the poet" and "the author" are non-restrictive because they are just extra information. Herman Melville and Walt Whitman are icons of American literature, greatly beloved by generations past and present. Still makes sense without "the poet" and "the author."
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by capnx » Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:02 pm
I think for B, because it is unrestrictive, you need the unrestrictive structure with the commas: Herman Melville, the author, and Walt Whitman, the poet, are icons
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by karmayogi » Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:50 am
Thanks everyone. I got the difference. Check the following URL: https://learnenglish.byexamples.com/noun ... s/#respond
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by mmslf75 » Fri Jan 01, 2010 11:05 pm
I read on MGMAT Forum that

https://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/res ... t8039.html

Quote from MGMAT

""""" this is a special idiom. if you preface someone's name with a noun describing their occupation (or other word describing what that person does), WITHOUT AN ARTICLE, you DO NOT use a comma.

if there's an article, you DO use a comma.

if it's an adjective, you DO use a comma.

example:
Jazz pianist and composer Thelonious Monk ... --> correct
A jazz pianist and composer, Thelonious Monk ... --> correct
Creative and original, Thelonious Monk ... --> correct
""""""

If this is correctthen the correct answer cannot be A right ??
It should be D
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by viidyasagar » Sun Jan 03, 2010 10:13 pm
mmslf75 wrote:I read on MGMAT Forum that

https://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/res ... t8039.html

Quote from MGMAT

""""" this is a special idiom. if you preface someone's name with a noun describing their occupation (or other word describing what that person does), WITHOUT AN ARTICLE, you DO NOT use a comma.

if there's an article, you DO use a comma.

if it's an adjective, you DO use a comma.

example:
Jazz pianist and composer Thelonious Monk ... --> correct
A jazz pianist and composer, Thelonious Monk ... --> correct
Creative and original, Thelonious Monk ... --> correct
""""""

If this is correctthen the correct answer cannot be A right ??
It should be D

I think, this is an excellent question....seems basic but generates views

Let me explain what i have understood..... 1stly "D" has 2 commas......the rule stated above (in quotes) defends only the 1st comma, not the 2nd comma....hence

The correct sentence constructions are

1. The author Herman Melville and the poet Walt Whitman are icons

and

2. The author, Herman Melville and the poet, Walt Whitman are icons

but surely not........The author, Herman Melville, and the poet, Walt Whitman, are icons......take the 2nd comma from D and D is just as good as A
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by lunarpower » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:22 am
nice catch.

i've elaborated on that post.

see this:
https://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/pos ... tml#p35618

also scroll up a bit, and see my edits to the original post.

ah, complexities
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by viidyasagar » Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:29 am
Ron i thought i had cracked this..but now i am confused again :-(

No article or definite article (the) we do not use a comma

Indefinite article (a, an) or adjectives then we do use a comma....

Are the above rules correct or does a comma accompany all kinds of articles (indefinite and definite) ?

Besides, what's the harm with no comma here.......

Among her friends were an author and a painter; the author Ernest Hemingway went on to become an icon of American literature.....why does the rule change when we use 2 or more descriptions?????
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by Stuart@KaplanGMAT » Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:44 am
viidyasagar wrote:
Besides, what's the harm with no comma here.......

Among her friends were an author and a painter; the author Ernest Hemingway went on to become an icon of American literature.....why does the rule change when we use 2 or more descriptions?????
To put this in context, Viidyasagar is referring to Ron's post on the MGMAT boards, where he wrote the sentence as:
Among her friends were an author and a painter; the author, Ernest Hemingway, went on to become an icon of American literature...
We need the comma after "the author" because we're differentiating between the author and the painter mentioned in the first half of the sentence.

In other words, we're not talking about "the author Ernest Hemingway" in a vacuum, we're really saying "the author, the guy I mentioned before the semicolon, went on to...".

It may seem strange, but "Ernest Hemingway" is non-restrictive in this sentence; we already know that "the author" refers to one of "her friends" and the author's name is just bonus information, so we put it between commas.
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by mmslf75 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:14 am
lunarpower wrote:nice catch.

i've elaborated on that post.

see this:
https://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/pos ... tml#p35618

also scroll up a bit, and see my edits to the original post.

ah, complexities

Thanks Ron,

Understood now, that's why I had to reopen this thread !
Nice to see the edited post on Manhattan

So to sum up, be careful with "THE"

This reminds me of another doubt,



For many revisionist historians, Christopher Columbus has come to
personify devastation and enslavement in the name of progress that
has decimated native peoples of the Western Hemisphere.

A. devastation and enslavement in the name of progress that
has decimated native peoples of the Western Hemisphere

B. devastation and enslavement in the name of progress by
which native peoples of the Western Hemisphere
decimated

C. devastating and enslaving in the name of progress those native
peoples of the Western Hemisphere which in the name of progress are decimated.

D. devastating and enslaving those native peoples of the western
Hemisphere which in the name of progress are decimated.

E. the devastation and enslavement in the name of progress that
have decimated the native peoples of the Western Hemisphere.

Here, which is better A or E ?

Q1

Look closely at E .. it uses "THE" devastation and enslavement !!
any clue as to this needs to taken care while choosing between A and E ?

Q2
in the name of the progress that HAS
OR
the devastation and enslavement in the name of progress that HAVE

Q3
that" here logically refers to "devastation and enslavement" ?

Q4
I have heard of "bread and butter" as single units
if that is the case, then here also do we use the same logic ?

whoa !! i am confused too many things in this sentence...
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by Stuart@KaplanGMAT » Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:42 am
mmslf75 wrote:For many revisionist historians, Christopher Columbus has come to
personify devastation and enslavement in the name of progress that
has decimated native peoples of the Western Hemisphere.

A. devastation and enslavement in the name of progress that
has decimated native peoples of the Western Hemisphere

B. devastation and enslavement in the name of progress by
which native peoples of the Western Hemisphere
decimated

C. devastating and enslaving in the name of progress those native
peoples of the Western Hemisphere which in the name of progress are decimated.

D. devastating and enslaving those native peoples of the western
Hemisphere which in the name of progress are decimated.

E. the devastation and enslavement in the name of progress that
have decimated the native peoples of the Western Hemisphere.

Here, which is better A or E ?

Q1

Look closely at E .. it uses "THE" devastation and enslavement !!
any clue as to this needs to taken care while choosing between A and E ?

Q2
in the name of the progress that HAS
OR
the devastation and enslavement in the name of progress that HAVE

Q3
that" here logically refers to "devastation and enslavement" ?

Q4
I have heard of "bread and butter" as single units
if that is the case, then here also do we use the same logic ?

whoa !! i am confused too many things in this sentence...
Q1) Because we have the final phrase "that have...", we definitely need the definite article "the".

If the sentence had been:
For many revisionist historians, Christopher Columbus has come to personify devastation and enslavement in the name of progress.
then "the" would be incorrect.

Q2) For the purposes of the GMAT, "and" always creates a compound subject; "devastation and enslavement" is a plural subject, so we need the plural verb "have".

A good way to approach subject verb issues is to ignore everything else in the sentence. Let's compare:
The X and Y that have...
and
The X and Y that has...
Clearly the first one is correct.

Q3) "in the name of progress" is a prepositional phrase; when looking at modification issues, ignore such phrases and focus on the core elements of the sentence.

Accordingly, we have:

"... the devastation and enslavement... that have..."

Q4) such cases are extremely rare and I wouldn't worry about them showing up on the GMAT, which tends to test general rules rather than exceptions (although if you're doing very well in verbal you may see some rarer idioms).
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by mmslf75 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:25 am
thanks stuart,

Agree with u on 3 rd and 4th
query in
2nd
Get the point , so u mean that THAT here is actually refering to a small listof 2 entities X and Y
therefore, THE X and Y that HAVE ..

if ON GMAT --- " The X and Y that HAVE " --always correct then similarly ----- " X and Y that HAVE " will also be correct right ?

See here : the sentence https://www.beatthegmat.com/christopher- ... 80-15.html

query in
1st
Is it a rule to use THE for X and Y when followed by that have ??
I dont get the point in 1st !
Can u please explain
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