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Brutal SC: A group of students

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Brutal SC: A group of students

by The Jock » Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:19 pm
A group of students who have begun to clean up Frederick Law Olmstead's Morning Park in New York City believes that the park needs not to be redesigned but to be returned to its former condition .


a)believes that the park needs not to be redesigned but to
b)believe that the park needs to not be redesigned but to
c)believes that the park needs not to be redesigned but could
d)believe that the park needs not to be redesigned but to
e)believe that the park needs not to be redesigned but that it

I think the A should be the answer.
Group of students-> singular-> B, D and, E out
between A and C, A uses correct idiom "not X...But Y" and "to be redesigned" is parallel "to to be returned".
Please correct me if I am wrong. I don't have OA of this question.
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by shovan85 » Thu Nov 25, 2010 10:12 pm
a)believes that the park needs not to be redesigned but to correct

b)believe that the park needs to not be redesigned but to [ subject is singular- a group, verb required should be singular]

c)believes that the park needs not to be redesigned but could [ Not X but Y where X and Y are to parallel]

d)believe that the park needs not to be redesigned but to [SVA error subject is singular- a group, verb required should be singular]

e)believe that the park needs not to be redesigned but that it [SVA error subject is singular- a group, verb required should be singular]

OA A

You are correct Jock :)
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by saurabh_maths » Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:02 am
I am confused on this.

A group of students is singular or plural ??

If it is singular then why 'have begun' is used instead of 'has begun' ?

Please correct me if I am wrong .
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by kapur.arnav » Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:34 am
saurabh_maths wrote:I am confused on this.

A group of students is singular or plural ??

If it is singular then why 'have begun' is used instead of 'has begun' ?

Please correct me if I am wrong .
Bang on man... thats something to which I would like to have an answer to EXPERTS!!!
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by rishab1988 » Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:08 am
Group is singular.Therefore, B,D,and E out.

The answer should be A
According to me,this is not a GMAT question.

Reason || ism. A group of .... believe that X not be redesigned but returned.

eg. I believe that you are old and not young.

Alternatively, I believe that you are not young but old.

So you can see the || ism is between Not X but Y.

Both X and Y should be same parts of the speech,i.e,either both are nouns or both are adjectives ...

To discern between A and D.look at the A ,Both X and Y are parallel,but in C could (verb) is not parallel to split infinitive (to be redesigned).

You say The park needs [honestly it should be need and not needs] not be redesigned but be returned to its former condition.[see you have to repeat be]

You can also say: The park needs not to be redesigned but to be redesigned but to be returned.

You can also say :The park needs to not be redesigned but be returned. [see to was distributive here but be still had be repeated]

You can also say: The park needs to be not redesigned but returned. [redesigned and returned are || because they are verbs]The to be was distributive

But you CANNOT say: The park needs not to be redesigned but could returned.

You can clearly see to be redesigned is not parallel to could returned.You need to repeat be.Also could is just wrong because this group [ of students] believes that X need not be done but Y be done. This statement turns that certainty into uncertainty by using could.Could implies that this may or may not be done.
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by rishab1988 » Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:19 am
Guys "A group of students who have... " is perfectly correct.

The group is the subject.

of is the preposition.

students are the object of this preposition

who have.. modifies students,the object of this preposition.Students are plural ,hence have. [the grammatical explanation]

Alternatively, A group of students - is a noun idea.

Who is a relative pronoun and can modify anything in the noun idea,logically.

Same is true for which,that.

For eg A group of students that is small consists of 5 students. See that modifying group (hence singular is)

A group of students that are rich consists of 5 students. See that is now modifying students. [use who in place of that to refer to people].This is a illustration.

You can see logically that in first example the group is small and the students are rich in the second example.The relative pronoun takes the verb number of the antecedent.If the antecedent is singular,relative pronoun is singular.If the antecedent is plural,the verb of the relative pronoun takes plural form.
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by shovan85 » Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:20 am
kapur.arnav wrote:
saurabh_maths wrote:I am confused on this.

A group of students is singular or plural ??

If it is singular then why 'have begun' is used instead of 'has begun' ?

Please correct me if I am wrong .
Bang on man... thats something to which I would like to have an answer to EXPERTS!!!
Hmm!!! This is a general issue I have seen arising among the GMAt aspirants. Good to see that I am not alone :)

See below rules:

She is one of the girls that/who are in the high school.

In the above statement, "She" is the object of the group "girls". If the Group is followed by That/Who then the immediate verb will take Plural form.

General: Y is one of the Xs THAT/WHO Plural Verb .

She is one of the girls eats Burger.

If the Group is not followed by THAT or WHO then the verb will take singular form.

General: Y is one of the Xs Singular Verb .

So what happened here in this problem?

A group of students who have begun to clean up Frederick La...

Thus HAVE is correct. :)
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by kapur.arnav » Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:03 am
shovan85 wrote:
kapur.arnav wrote:
saurabh_maths wrote:I am confused on this.

A group of students is singular or plural ??

If it is singular then why 'have begun' is used instead of 'has begun' ?

Please correct me if I am wrong .
Bang on man... thats something to which I would like to have an answer to EXPERTS!!!
Hmm!!! This is a general issue I have seen arising among the GMAt aspirants. Good to see that I am not alone :)

See below rules:

She is one of the girls that/who are in the high school.

In the above statement, "She" is the object of the group "girls". If the Group is followed by That/Who then the immediate verb will take Plural form.

General: Y is one of the Xs THAT/WHO Plural Verb .

She is one of the girls eats Burger.

If the Group is not followed by THAT or WHO then the verb will take singular form.

General: Y is one of the Xs Singular Verb .

So what happened here in this problem?

A group of students who have begun to clean up Frederick La...

Thus HAVE is correct. :)
So all rules applicable to one of the X that/who and only one of the x that/ who etc... are applicable in case of group... im trying to generalize the rule...
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by shovan85 » Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:10 am
kapur.arnav wrote:
shovan85 wrote:
kapur.arnav wrote:
saurabh_maths wrote:I am confused on this.

A group of students is singular or plural ??

If it is singular then why 'have begun' is used instead of 'has begun' ?

Please correct me if I am wrong .
Bang on man... thats something to which I would like to have an answer to EXPERTS!!!
Hmm!!! This is a general issue I have seen arising among the GMAt aspirants. Good to see that I am not alone :)

See below rules:

She is one of the girls that/who are in the high school.

In the above statement, "She" is the object of the group "girls". If the Group is followed by That/Who then the immediate verb will take Plural form.

General: Y is one of the Xs THAT/WHO Plural Verb .

She is one of the girls eats Burger.

If the Group is not followed by THAT or WHO then the verb will take singular form.

General: Y is one of the Xs Singular Verb .

So what happened here in this problem?

A group of students who have begun to clean up Frederick La...

Thus HAVE is correct. :)
So all rules applicable to one of the X that/who and only one of the x that/ who etc... are applicable in case of group... im trying to generalize the rule...
If the plural part (i.e the group such as "students" here) is followed by that/who will must follow Plural verb.

There is a rule also for considering the definite article "THE". I m not sure about this as till now I have not seen any reliable confirmed resources about this.

She is one of the girls that play here.

She is the one of the girls that plays here.

See in the second sentence definite article the is used to emphasize the single girl, so singular verb used.
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by rishab1988 » Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:24 am
This rule is a special case.Do not apply this rule to this case.You can't generalize this rule.

The reason the verb takes plural here is :


eg : she is one of the girls that study here.

You use plural girls for this girl is one of the many girls that study here.You can't have just 1 girl.

another eg: This orchestra is one of the most famous orchestra bands in NY.

but you can't say "This orchestra is one of the most famous orchestra in NY" because orchestra as such is a collective noun and acts as singular.

The that here just modifies girls/bands here.

and therefore the verb of that clause takes plural form.

This rule CANNOT be generalized.

For eg The cars in US,which is a world superpower,are the best in the world. - which modifies US therefore is

However you CANNOT say : The cars in US,which usually is pick up truck,are cheap.

because here which clearly modifies car and not US.US cannot be pick-up truck!

The cars in US,which usually are pick-up trucks,are cheap

See which is modifying the noun idea "cars in US" but the thing modified is cars and not US.
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by EducationAisle » Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:01 am
What do you think about the following sentence:

This car in US, which is a pick-up truck, is cheap.

Is it correct?
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by rishab1988 » Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:09 am
It is correct.

Which can modify either car or US, but here,logically it is modifying car.

Get hold of MGMAT SC guide and look in the advanced sections. You cannot split a noun idea.

See pg 234 MGMAT.

The correct form is : He had a way OF DODGING OPPONENTS that impressed the scouts.

See the placement of the that clause.Even though it is modifying way,it is placed next to opponents.

The incorrect form is : He had a way that impressed the scouts of DODGING OPPONENTS.

This is incorrect for, DODGING OPPONENTS is part of the noun idea : way of dodging opponents.This describes what kind of way it was.

It is incorrect to say :

This car,which is a pick-up truck,in US is cheap.

This sentence doesn't even make sense.

Btw I must say even the sentence you posted is flawed : This gives an impression that you are pointing to some in front of you and and at the same you are talking about the position of the car (in US).

You are literally giving an impression by writing this sentence that the car is in front of you as well as in the US.Logically,can anything be at two places at the same time in the real world,ex Hollywood movies?

Since you know that car is in front of you,you don't need to tell it is in US.

You can say : This car,which is a pick-up truck, is cheap

Or : The car in US,which is a pick-up truck,is cheap.

Or more specifically if you want to specify that this is an american car,then use the following construction.

This American car,which is a pick-up truck,is cheap.
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by EducationAisle » Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:26 am
This statement is actually wrong. This is a basic difference between how essential and non-essential clauses work ('which' signifies 'non-essential', 'that' is essential).

'which', in this case modifies US, but since that doesn't logically make sense, this sentence is not correct.
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by rishab1988 » Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:44 am
dude you are wrong.

Just asked my dad.He is PHD in English.He says that my sentence is correct.

Besides your very argument is flawed.Being essential vs non-essential is totally different from what it can modify.[might help you in CR].

Being essential means that whether it is important to the meaning of the sentence and being non-essential to the meaning of the sentence.

Can you please show any definition by ANY prep company that shows that "that can modify anything in noun idea" but "which cannot".

Infact.Just see OG 12 Q 26. "Emily Dickinson's letters to Susan Huntington,which were written...,outnumber her letters to anyone else"

This is the correct answer as per OG. The noun idea is letters to Susan Huntington.We very well know which can only modify inanimate objects and who can only modify persons.

So,according to you this sentence is incorrect because which is non-essential?

Therefore,DON'T make up YOUR OWN rules.

Besides, I can show you an example from Knewton that shows a similar construction as mine.

Here is an attachment that shows that even Knewton- well known GMATPrep company- agrees with me.


Image
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by EducationAisle » Sat Nov 27, 2010 5:14 am
Request you to be a bit respectful, or else don't reply.

You quote:

Emily Dickinson's letters to Susan Huntington,which were written...,outnumber her letters to anyone else.

The reason why 'which' does not modify Susan Huntington in this case is because of two reasons:

1. 'which' cannot modify 'people' (grammatically)
2. 'were' can only modify 'singluar' things and 'Susan Huntington' is singluar.

So, the nearest eligible noun that 'which' can modify is 'letters'.

In the earlier example that you had quoted, the reason was similar: 'are' (plural) cannot modify 'US' (singular).
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