A question about "That" / essential modifier / Adj

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I know that "that" is a essential modifier. I have a question :

Sentence: I know a lot of people in white shirt who go to office. Is this okay as per GMAT ? Basically, who..... is an adjective clause that modifies "people". However, there is a prepositional phrase between "people" and "adjective clause". Is this OKAY ?

Secondly, in this sentence :

I ate a cherry lying on the table that was sweeter than apple. Similarly, in this sentence, I have a prepositional phrase between the noun and "that..." I am not sure whether this is okay w.r.t. GMAT.

Any expert thoughts please?
Source: — Sentence Correction |

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by cans » Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:44 pm
I don't think 2nd phrase is correct.
that can refer to table also
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by atulmangal » Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:00 pm
voodoo_child wrote:I know that "that" is a essential modifier. I have a question :

Sentence: I know a lot of people in white shirt who go to office. Is this okay as per GMAT ? Basically, who..... is an adjective clause that modifies "people". However, there is a prepositional phrase between "people" and "adjective clause". Is this OKAY ?

Secondly, in this sentence :

I ate a cherry lying on the table that was sweeter than apple. Similarly, in this sentence, I have a prepositional phrase between the noun and "that..." I am not sure whether this is okay w.r.t. GMAT.

Any expert thoughts please?
Hi m glad, u asked this question...
my 2 cents
if u speak in general terms both the example is not up to the mark, however, if i remember correctly about what i read in manhattan forum that in some cases we don't have a choice to write the sentence in a better way, like the examples u mentioned. I don't find any better way to re-write those sentences, if there is a better op go for that, but i believe there is no such op possible here.

secondly if u notice in both the examples the meaning is clear, there is no ambiguity there.

Third, if u know, COMMA + WHICH doesn't modify only preceding noun while it can also modify preceding NOUN PHRASE. if u apply the same concept over here, i believe both of your examples are correct. in second sentence THAT cannot refer to TABLE as in that case the sentence doesn't reflect any logical meaning.

Hence i believe both the sentences are correctly written. Also note if u find any other option in question which is better than go for that one.

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by smackmartine » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:21 pm
IMO

1) I know a lot of people in white shirt who go to office.

It seems the author (voodoo_child :) ) wants to keep everything essential in the above sentence.
"who" should always be close to "person" it modifies (while "which" has flexibility in case of noun phrase, "who" doesn't (I have rarely seen such a sentence "with" who far from "person")). However, prepositional phrase has more flexibility to be placed in any part of the sentence as far as meaning is clear.
If we stick to what MGMT guide says, IMO, "I know a lot of people who go to office in white shirt. " is a better sentence.

2) I ate a cherry lying on the table that was sweeter than apple. (sounds ok!)

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by atulmangal » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:28 pm
smackmartine wrote:IMO

1) I know a lot of people in white shirt who go to office.

It seems the author (voodoo_child :) ) wants to keep everything essential in the above sentence.
"who" should always be close to "person" it modifies (while "which" has flexibility in case of noun phrase, "who" doesn't (I have rarely seen such a sentence "with" who far from "person")). However, prepositional phrase has more flexibility to be placed in any part of the sentence as far as meaning is clear.
If we stick to what MGMT guide says, IMO, "I know a lot of people who go to office in white shirt. " is a better sentence.

2) I ate a cherry lying on the table that was sweeter than apple. (sounds ok!)
Thanks brother, the way u changed the 1st example is really cool and as i said in my post if a better op is available then thats good...clearly ur example is much better, thanks for that.

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by Frankenstein » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:15 pm
Hi,
Agree with Smackmartine's post. The most important thing is that the correct option in GMAT is always the best of the given options, not that it is 100% free from errors. As Atul has mentioned correctly that if the meaning is clear, we can ignore ambiguity, I would like to add one more point to the above post.
If we modify the 2nd example as:
I ate a cherry lying on the table that has the same color of an apple.
I believe, this can interpreted in two ways. So, it is ambiguous. We need to look for an option that clears this ambiguity.
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by Ashley@VeritasPrep » Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:45 am
Really good points above, everyone, so I'll primarily just echo them. The deal with modifiers is just that WHEN they modify nouns, they should show up as close as possible to the nouns they modify. This rule exists to avoid ambiguity (or equivalently, to make the meaning of the sentence as clear as possible). Contrast it with some other rules, such as the need for a verb to agree with its subject, the requirement that a prounoun agree in number with its antecedent, or even the necessity of forming complete sentence: all these rules exist basically because they're established as standard in the grammar. Let's say I wrote any of the following:

"I goes to the store."
"The team likes their coach."
"Because I can't run that fast."

All of these sentences have blatant technical grammatical errors (subject-verb clash, pronoun-antecedent clash, and sentence fragment respectively), so we absolutely wouldn't want to say any of these things EVEN THOUGH the meanings of all three are totally clear.

But since the modifier rule is really motivated by a concern for clarity more than by anything else, there's a bit more flexibility in it. As others have said very well above, the goal is always to choose the clearest among the options that do not blatantly violate any grammatical rules -- and this is of course true not only on the GMAT, but ANYTIME in life that you're composing sentences!

I like (very much!) smackmartine's suggestion of a revision to "I know a lot of people who go to the office in white shirts," because this gets more closely at what I imagine is the intended meaning of the sentence. Here's the difference as I see it:

If you say, "I know a lot of people in white shirts who go to the office," it sounds as though "in white shirts" is some sort of permanent quality of these people, as though these people are always in white shirts and the white shirts aren't detachable from their bodies... just as you might say, "I know a lot of people with brown hair who go to the office." This is probably not what's intended.

On the other hand, if you say, "I know a lot of people who go to the office in white shirts," or alternatively, "I know a lot of people who go to the office wearing white shirts," then "in/wearing white shirts" becomes an adverbial phrase telling you how (i.e. in what fashion) the people go to the office, just as you might say "I know a lot of people who go to the office everyday." So I think this solution works best as far as logical meaning.

To sum up, this modifier issue is not one of the absolute, definite, firmly fixed grammar rules; it's a clarity concern. We place modifiers that modify nouns as close as we can to the nouns they modify, so as to avoid ambiguity as best as possible, but in some sentences their may be limits to how close they can get. If that's the case, as long as the sentence's meaning is clear, and there's no way to make it clearer, it'll be fine.

Best,
Ashley Newman-Owens
GMAT Instructor
Veritas Prep

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by voodoo_child » Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:03 pm
Thanks Ashley and Smackmartine!!!

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