Subject/ Proposition

This topic has expert replies
Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
Posts: 233
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:51 pm
Location: New York
Thanked: 7 times
Followed by:2 members

Subject/ Proposition

by yellowho » Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:18 am
A few questions on this problem:

1) I thought that a noun that is part of the a prepositional phrase CANNOT bet he subject.

2) Isn't "his" wrong because it refers to James Brown in the first usage but then his is used to refer to "baseball player"
Attachments
v1.JPG
Source: — Sentence Correction |

Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
Posts: 231
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:45 am
Thanked: 5 times
Followed by:1 members

by winnerhere » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:51 pm
whats the source.

The correct answer should be "but be calculated by the number of runs created or his sluggish average" - This option is not there

Not X but Y parallelism rule is tested here I suppose ..

any experts?

Legendary Member
Posts: 857
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:36 am
Thanked: 56 times
Followed by:15 members

by AIM GMAT » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:17 pm
Whats the OA ?

I vote for D .

Please kindly specify the source and official explanations .
Thanks & Regards,
AIM GMAT

Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
Posts: 233
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:51 pm
Location: New York
Thanked: 7 times
Followed by:2 members

by yellowho » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:21 pm
You are correct. What is the rationale? You thought "his" is fine? This e-gmat.com stuff.

[quote="AIM GMAT"]Whats the OA ?

I vote for D .

Please kindly specify the source and official explanations .[/quote]

Legendary Member
Posts: 857
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:36 am
Thanked: 56 times
Followed by:15 members

by AIM GMAT » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:56 pm
Well i went be method of elimination and looked for parralelism , we dont have any option without "his". I guess we need experts to guide us on your query .
Thanks & Regards,
AIM GMAT

Legendary Member
Posts: 1337
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2008 6:29 pm
Thanked: 127 times
Followed by:10 members

by Night reader » Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:01 am
yellowho wrote:A few questions on this problem:

1) I thought that a noun that is part of the a prepositional phrase CANNOT bet he subject.

2) Isn't "his" wrong because it refers to James Brown in the first usage but then his is used to refer to "baseball player"
Both B and D suit here --> it's more B than even D

User avatar
Legendary Member
Posts: 752
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:47 am
Thanked: 20 times
Followed by:10 members
GMAT Score:700

by prachich1987 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:04 am
IMO : D

The runs created and the average are two different things here.
Average is a function of both RUNS CREATED and NO. OF MATCHES PLAYED.

Hence taking into consideration only one factor won't do.
Thanks!
Prachi

Legendary Member
Posts: 1337
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2008 6:29 pm
Thanked: 127 times
Followed by:10 members

by Night reader » Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:11 am
pitching speed and general athleticism are also different stuff --> one is speed i.e. physical measure/criterion and the other is a term :( each can imply thousand things
prachich1987 wrote:IMO : D

The runs created and the average are two different things here.
Average is a function of both RUNS CREATED and NO. OF MATCHES PLAYED.

Hence taking into consideration only one factor won't do.

Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
Posts: 233
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:51 pm
Location: New York
Thanked: 7 times
Followed by:2 members

by yellowho » Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:19 am
I don't understand what is meant here. Are you trying to suggest the usage of "and" over "or"? "Average is a function of BOTH runs..." I don't know if that sentence says BOTH.


Any thoughts on "his"?

[quote="prachich1987"]IMO : D

The runs created and the average are two different things here.
Average is a function of both RUNS CREATED and NO. OF MATCHES PLAYED.

Hence taking into consideration only one factor won't do.[/quote]

GMAT/MBA Expert

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 645
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:42 pm
Location: US
Thanked: 527 times
Followed by:227 members

by e-GMAT » Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:17 am
Lets begin by understanding the meaning of the sentence:

This sentence lists out James Brown's recommendation for how the value of baseball player should be calculated. He says that it should not be calculated by any of these factors:
1: number of homeruns
2: pitching speed
3: general athleticism

It should be calculated by any of these:
1: number of runs created
2: slugging average

A key thing to note in this sentence is the use of "or" in the list of factors. For example in the second list, he implies that value should be calculated either by number of runs created or by slugging average.
Note that if for list 2, you replaced or with and, then the meaning will change to:
value should be calculated by number of runs created and by slugging average - so a combination of both factors.

Now before I proceed to address the specific doubts in this question, let me mention that the non-underlined portion of this sentence has an error. All the choices are actually written based on the "should-be" version of non-underlined portion of the sentence:

As-is: value of a baseball player not be calculated by
Should-be: value of a baseball player be calculated not by

(@winnerhere is absolutely correct in saying that this question tests the usage of not x but y idiom).

Now continuing with the error analysis (we will split the sentence into its clauses)
(Note that I will focus only on the errors that pertain to the doubts posted by the posters here)

1: In 1980, James Brown in his book Baseball Abstract recommended
2: that the value of a baseball player be calculated not by the number of home runs, pitching speed, or general athleticism demonstrated on the field but calculated by the number of runs created or his slugging average.

SV Analysis:
Clause 1 SV Pair = James Brown - Recommended
Clase 2 SV Pair = Value - be calculated

@yellowwho, you mentioned that subject cannot reside in a prepositional phrase. That is absolutely correct (barring a few exceptions!!) But in this case neither of subjects lie in the prepositional phrase, so I am not sure what you mean by this doubt. Please elaborate so that I can clarify.

Pronoun Analysis:
There are two instances of "His' in this sentence:
1: 'his' in Clause 1 correctly refers to "James Brown".
2: Now to determine the antecedent of pronoun in clause 2, you will first look for a possible antecedent in clause 2 itself. As you see "baseball player" is the possible antecedent and indeed is the logical antecedent. And hence "his" in clause 2 refers to "baseball player".

@yellowho: Usage of his is absolutely correct here since the antecedent for 'his' in second clause appears correctly before the occurrence of second "his".
Lets consider a simpler sentence:

Tom likes his job, but James does not like his job.
In this case we have two clauses
1: Tom likes his job
2: But James does not like his job

We have two occurrences of "his". In Clause 1, his refers to Tom, and in clause2, his refers to James.
Now if you are thinking that a pronoun cannot refer to a noun in a prepositional phrase, then you are not correct. Please be sure to note that the rule of subject not lying in a prepositional phrase IS CORRECT. But many a times, people extend this rule to pronoun reference as well and think that antecedent cannot like in a prepositional phrase. There is no such rule. It is absolutely fine for a pronoun to refer to an antecedent in a prepositional phrase.

Idiom Analysis:
The sentence uses the following idiom structure
be calculated not by X but calculated by Y
This is incorrect. The correct structure should be:
Not by X but by Y.

This is corrected in Choice B - the correct choice.

I will not go through detailed POE, but only mention about Choice D since people have raised concerns regarding that choice. Choice D is not correct since it changes the intended meaning of the sentence. (as explained above in the meaning analysis) But note that it is grammatically correct. So you need to pay attention to the meaning of the original sentence. Even thought choice D is grammatically correct, it is not the correct choice because of the presence of "and" instead of "or" as intended in the original choice. Thus, it is very very very important to understand what the author is trying to communicate through the original sentence.

Let me know if you have any other doubts:

One last thing that I would like to mention is that we do not encourage posting e-GMAT questions in public forums. This is because we intend to keep our course content fresh for our users. However, we do understand that our users may have questions and doubts, and for this reason each concept in e-GMAT has a separate forum through which users can post any doubts that they have pertaining to our content. This way our users can see what doubts other e-gmat users have raised. Another great benefit of posting doubts on e-gmat internal forums is the speed of response. We respond to all queries within 24 hours. Actually, our average response time is less than 12 hours. So your questions really get answered almost right away.

Thanks,

Payal

Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:26 am
Thanked: 1 times
Followed by:1 members

by RACHVIK » Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:15 pm
Thanks Payal for the detailed reply.

I have used e-gmat course and even completed same with all the quizzes and various level qualifying exercises. It really helps one build on concepts and test them under timed conditions. To add to Payal's remark, the support is really good and queries are indeed responded to within 12 to 24 hrs.
Rachvik

Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
Posts: 233
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:51 pm
Location: New York
Thanked: 7 times
Followed by:2 members

by yellowho » Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:36 pm
Payal,

Thanks for the clarification and awesome breakdown. Regarding your examples about pronoun. Does it matter if the two clauses are dependent/independent clause? I'm still trying to reconcile what you said to this example below. Can you please show me the difference?

1) After roasting the deer, the hunter extinguished the fire and then searched for a tree to hang it from.

The OA suggest that: deer, fire, and tree are all in contention to be "it." Here, after roasting the deer is a dependent clause but deer is still eligible to be the antecedent. So, I guess dependent/independent clause matters?

[I guess this problem is similar to one of the problem in the set inwhich one of the clause is embedded into another clause]



[quote="e-GMAT"]Lets begin by understanding the meaning of the sentence:

This sentence lists out James Brown's recommendation for how the value of baseball player should be calculated. He says that it should not be calculated by any of these factors:
1: number of homeruns
2: pitching speed
3: general athleticism

It should be calculated by any of these:
1: number of runs created
2: slugging average

A key thing to note in this sentence is the use of "or" in the list of factors. For example in the second list, he implies that value should be calculated either by number of runs created or by slugging average.
Note that if for list 2, you replaced or with and, then the meaning will change to:
value should be calculated by number of runs created and by slugging average - so a combination of both factors.

Now before I proceed to address the specific doubts in this question, let me mention that the non-underlined portion of this sentence has an error. All the choices are actually written based on the "should-be" version of non-underlined portion of the sentence:

As-is: value of a baseball player [color=red]not be calculated[/color] by
Should-be: value of a baseball player [color=green][b]be calculated not[/b][/color] by

(@winnerhere is absolutely correct in saying that this question tests the usage of not x but y idiom).

Now continuing with the error analysis (we will split the sentence into its clauses)
(Note that I will focus only on the errors that pertain to the doubts posted by the posters here)

1: In 1980, James Brown in his book Baseball Abstract recommended
2: that the value of a baseball player be calculated not by the number of home runs, pitching speed, or general athleticism demonstrated on the field but calculated by the number of runs created or his slugging average.

SV Analysis:
Clause 1 SV Pair = James Brown - Recommended
Clase 2 SV Pair = Value - be calculated

@yellowwho, you mentioned that subject cannot reside in a prepositional phrase. That is absolutely correct (barring a few exceptions!!) But in this case neither of subjects lie in the prepositional phrase, so I am not sure what you mean by this doubt. Please elaborate so that I can clarify.

Pronoun Analysis:
There are two instances of "His' in this sentence:
1: 'his' in Clause 1 correctly refers to "James Brown".
2: Now to determine the antecedent of pronoun in clause 2, you will first look for a possible antecedent in clause 2 itself. As you see "baseball player" is the possible antecedent and indeed is the logical antecedent. And hence "his" in clause 2 refers to "baseball player".

@yellowho: Usage of his is absolutely correct here since the antecedent for 'his' in second clause appears correctly before the occurrence of second "his".
Lets consider a simpler sentence:

Tom likes his job, but James does not like his job.
In this case we have two clauses
1: Tom likes his job
2: But James does not like his job

We have two occurrences of "his". In Clause 1, his refers to Tom, and in clause2, his refers to James.
Now if you are thinking that a pronoun cannot refer to a noun in a prepositional phrase, then you are not correct. Please be sure to note that the rule of subject not lying in a prepositional phrase IS CORRECT. But many a times, people extend this rule to pronoun reference as well and think that antecedent cannot like in a prepositional phrase. There is no such rule. It is absolutely fine for a pronoun to refer to an antecedent in a prepositional phrase.

Idiom Analysis:
The sentence uses the following idiom structure
be calculated not [u]by X[/u] but [u]calculated by Y[/u]
This is incorrect. The correct structure should be:
Not by X but by Y.

This is corrected in Choice B - the correct choice.

I will not go through detailed POE, but only mention about Choice D since people have raised concerns regarding that choice. Choice D is not correct since it changes the intended meaning of the sentence. (as explained above in the meaning analysis) But note that it is grammatically correct. So you need to pay attention to the meaning of the original sentence. Even thought choice D is grammatically correct, it is not the correct choice because of the presence of "and" instead of "or" as intended in the original choice. Thus, it is very very very important to understand what the author is trying to communicate through the original sentence.

Let me know if you have any other doubts:

One last thing that I would like to mention is that we do not encourage posting e-GMAT questions in public forums. This is because we intend to keep our course content fresh for our users. However, we do understand that our users may have questions and doubts, and for this reason each concept in e-GMAT has a separate forum through which users can post any doubts that they have pertaining to our content. This way our users can see what doubts other e-gmat users have raised. Another great benefit of posting doubts on e-gmat internal forums is the speed of response. We respond to all queries within 24 hours. Actually, our average response time is less than 12 hours. So your questions really get answered almost right away.

Thanks,

Payal[/quote]

• Page 1 of 1