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reference of 'that' in OG sentence

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reference of 'that' in OG sentence

by vikram4689 » Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:00 am
This sentence is from OG
In virtually all types of tissue in every animal species, dioxin induces the production of enzymes that are the organism's attempt to metabolize, or render harmless, the chemical irritant

What does THAT refer to
1) I think 'that' should refer to 'production of enzymes' but then 'are' does not make sense
2) If 'that' refer to 'enzymes' then how can 'enzymes' are organism's attempt, although 'production of enzymes' can be classified as 'an attempt'
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by Bill@VeritasPrep » Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:13 am
"That" refers to enzymes, but we can't really say "dioxin induces enzymes that are..." because the dioxin does not directly produce the enzymes. It stimulates the organism to produce them, so we need some wording that indicates that.
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by vikram4689 » Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:25 am
Bill@VeritasPrep wrote:"That" refers to enzymes, but we can't really say "dioxin induces enzymes that are..." because the dioxin does not directly produce the enzymes. It stimulates the organism to produce them, so we need some wording that indicates that.
agreed but how come 'enzymes'(plural noun) are organism's attempt(singular noun)
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by Bill@VeritasPrep » Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:40 am
vikram4689 wrote:
Bill@VeritasPrep wrote:"That" refers to enzymes, but we can't really say "dioxin induces enzymes that are..." because the dioxin does not directly produce the enzymes. It stimulates the organism to produce them, so we need some wording that indicates that.
agreed but how come 'enzymes'(plural noun) are organism's attempt(singular noun)
Multiple enzymes could be produced as part of the same attempt to metabolize the dioxin; perhaps they all play different roles in a single response. (I don't know, I am not a doctor :D)
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by vikram4689 » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:36 am
Bill@VeritasPrep wrote:
vikram4689 wrote:
Bill@VeritasPrep wrote:"That" refers to enzymes, but we can't really say "dioxin induces enzymes that are..." because the dioxin does not directly produce the enzymes. It stimulates the organism to produce them, so we need some wording that indicates that.
agreed but how come 'enzymes'(plural noun) are organism's attempt(singular noun)
Multiple enzymes could be produced as part of the same attempt to metabolize the dioxin; perhaps they all play different roles in a single response. (I don't know, I am not a doctor :D)
see red part.. that is exactly what i am saying - production of enzymes is an attempt. Also following sentence does make sense - dioxin induces the production of enzymes that is the organism's attempt to metabolize the chemical irritant

Here's another sentence in which 'that' refers to 'enzymes' - dioxin induces the production of enzymes that are the organism's antidote against the chemical irritant

sorry for pestering but i am not getting this concept
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by Bill@VeritasPrep » Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:30 am
vikram4689 wrote: see red part.. that is exactly what i am saying - production of enzymes is an attempt. Also following sentence does make sense - dioxin induces the production of enzymes that is the organism's attempt to metabolize the chemical irritant
Here's another sentence in which 'that' refers to 'enzymes' - dioxin induces the production of enzymes that are the organism's antidote against the chemical irritant
sorry for pestering but i am not getting this concept
At this point, I think you're splitting hairs. It is extremely unlikely that the question would give you "production of enzymes that is the organism's attempt" and "production of enzymes that are the organism's attempt" as answer choices without other ways to differentiate them (and if I remember this question correctly, we don't have the first option as a choice, and there are a couple of more obvious errors that allow us to pick the right answer). I would still go with the second one, since the enzymes collectively make up the organism's attempt.
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by vikram4689 » Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:37 am
Bill@VeritasPrep wrote:
vikram4689 wrote: see red part.. that is exactly what i am saying - production of enzymes is an attempt. Also following sentence does make sense - dioxin induces the production of enzymes that is the organism's attempt to metabolize the chemical irritant
Here's another sentence in which 'that' refers to 'enzymes' - dioxin induces the production of enzymes that are the organism's antidote against the chemical irritant
sorry for pestering but i am not getting this concept
At this point, I think you're splitting hairs. It is extremely unlikely that the question would give you "production of enzymes that is the organism's attempt" and "production of enzymes that are the organism's attempt" as answer choices without other ways to differentiate them (and if I remember this question correctly, we don't have the first option as a choice, and there are a couple of more obvious errors that allow us to pick the right answer). I would still go with the second one, since the enzymes collectively make up the organism's attempt.
Actually, this is in non-underlined part. I was understanding concepts and meaning when i encountered this point
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by GMATGuruNY » Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:20 am
vikram4689 wrote:agreed but how come 'enzymes'(plural noun) are organism's attempt(singular noun)
I received a PM asking me to comment.

In the construction X + TO BE + Y, X is the subject and Y is the complement.
The complement of a plural subject can be singular:
The COSTUMES are the BEST PART of the show.
Here, the subject (costumes) is plural, while the complement (the best part) is singular.
The implication is that the costumes (as a group) constitute ONE THING: the BEST PART of the show.

In the SC above:
ENZYMES that are the organism's ATTEMPT to metabolize the irritant.
Here, enzymes (plural) has a singular complement (attempt).
The implication that the enzymes (as a group) constitute ONE THING: the organism's ATTEMPT to metabolize the irritant.
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by vikram4689 » Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:56 pm
GMATGuruNY wrote:
vikram4689 wrote:agreed but how come 'enzymes'(plural noun) are organism's attempt(singular noun)
I received a PM asking me to comment.

In the construction X + TO BE + Y, X is the subject and Y is the complement.
The complement of a plural subject can be singular:
The COSTUMES are the BEST PART of the show.
Here, the subject (costumes) is plural, while the complement (the best part) is singular.
The implication is that the costumes (as a group) constitute ONE THING: the BEST PART of the show.

In the SC above:
ENZYMES that are the organism's ATTEMPT to metabolize the irritant.
Here, enzymes (plural) has a singular complement (attempt).
The implication that the enzymes (as a group) constitute ONE THING: the organism's ATTEMPT to metabolize the irritant.
mitch, i concur that singular object can complement plural subject (also seen in my 2nd sentence below) but how 'enzymes' can be an 'attempt'.

dioxin induces the production of enzymes that is the organism's attempt to metabolize the chemical irritant

dioxin induces the production of enzymes that are the organism's antidote against the chemical irritant
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by GMATGuruNY » Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:40 pm
vikram4689 wrote:
GMATGuruNY wrote:
vikram4689 wrote:agreed but how come 'enzymes'(plural noun) are organism's attempt(singular noun)
I received a PM asking me to comment.

In the construction X + TO BE + Y, X is the subject and Y is the complement.
The complement of a plural subject can be singular:
The COSTUMES are the BEST PART of the show.
Here, the subject (costumes) is plural, while the complement (the best part) is singular.
The implication is that the costumes (as a group) constitute ONE THING: the BEST PART of the show.

In the SC above:
ENZYMES that are the organism's ATTEMPT to metabolize the irritant.
Here, enzymes (plural) has a singular complement (attempt).
The implication that the enzymes (as a group) constitute ONE THING: the organism's ATTEMPT to metabolize the irritant.
mitch, i concur that singular object can complement plural subject (also seen in my 2nd sentence below) but how 'enzymes' can be an 'attempt'.

dioxin induces the production of enzymes that is the organism's attempt to metabolize the chemical irritant

dioxin induces the production of enzymes that are the organism's antidote against the chemical irritant
Courtesy of Google:

High cholesterol levels are the body's attempt to keep itself healthy.
Fever and perspiration are the body's attempt to purge the pathogens.
Coughs are an attempt by the body to expel bacteria from the air passages.
Goosebumps are an attempt by the body to keep heat from escaping.
The higher insulin and lower glucagon secretions are an attempt by the body to maintain normal physiology.
Granulomas are the body's attempt to wall off or isolate organisms.

These sentences supply ample precedent for the phrasing employed by the SC above.
Last edited by GMATGuruNY on Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by lunarpower » Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:27 am
i received a private message about this thread.

i think the best response here is, "there's a reason this isn't part of the underline". i don't totally love their saying that a chemical itself is an "attempt" -- it would be more accurate to write "enzymes are released in an attempt..." -- but it's not a decision that the test-taker has to make. and i would bet a large sum of money that it won't ever be.

sometimes they play fast and loose with the non-underlined parts of the sentences. not very often (which is why the non-underlined parts still provide valuable opportunities for study), but, ya, sometimes.

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mitch:
GMATGuruNY wrote:Courtesy of Google:
if you're going to do this, you should be sure to check (and cite) the sources of the hits. google is the world's biggest aggregator, and it's just as easy to find "support" for incorrect constructions as for legitimate ones.

for instance, the idiom "prefer x over y" is wrong, and "prefer x to y" is correct.
but, if you google
prefer * over *
then you get 1.9 billion (yes, billion) hits.
if you google
prefer * to *
then you get 2.2 billion hits.
thus, "google research" here would lead to the incorrect conclusion that both idioms are legitimate.

in fact, using google on any frequently misused construction is probably going to lead to the opposite of the correct conclusion -- because any frequently misused construction is going to be ... well ... frequently misused on google, too.
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by GMATGuruNY » Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:09 am
lunarpower wrote:i received a private message about this thread.

i think the best response here is, "there's a reason this isn't part of the underline". i don't totally love their saying that a chemical itself is an "attempt" -- it would be more accurate to write "enzymes are released in an attempt..." -- but it's not a decision that the test-taker has to make. and i would bet a large sum of money that it won't ever be.

sometimes they play fast and loose with the non-underlined parts of the sentences. not very often (which is why the non-underlined parts still provide valuable opportunities for study), but, ya, sometimes.

--

mitch:
GMATGuruNY wrote:Courtesy of Google:
if you're going to do this, you should be sure to check (and cite) the sources of the hits. google is the world's biggest aggregator, and it's just as easy to find "support" for incorrect constructions as for legitimate ones.

for instance, the idiom "prefer x over y" is wrong, and "prefer x to y" is correct.
but, if you google
prefer * over *
then you get 1.9 billion (yes, billion) hits.
if you google
prefer * to *
then you get 2.2 billion hits.
thus, "google research" here would lead to the incorrect conclusion that both idioms are legitimate.

in fact, using google on any frequently misused construction is probably going to lead to the opposite of the correct conclusion -- because any frequently misused construction is going to be ... well ... frequently misused on google, too.
We're in agreement on all counts.
What the search revealed is that it is quite common in medical circles to deem the chemical itself an "attempt".
Then again, I don't go to my doctor for grammar advice.
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by lunarpower » Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:17 am
GMATGuruNY wrote:We're in agreement on all counts.
What the search revealed is that it is quite common in medical circles to deem the chemical itself an "attempt".
Then again, I don't go to my doctor for grammar advice.
yep. although if i found a fragment dangling on one of my essential parts, i would ask a doctor.

... i will stop now, before the nerd humor washes away everything that's useful in this thread.
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by vikram4689 » Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:17 am
thanks bill, mitch,and ron for a healthy discussion
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by vikram4689 » Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:26 am
What is the function of when in below sentence from OG. when only acts as conjunction or adverb. if 'when' acts as conjunction, simultaneous actions are described but that is not the case here. Only case remains that 'when' acts a adverb but which verb it is modifying. to me it seems to modify at nights or on weekends

As the cost of wireless service has steadily dropped over the last year and as mobile phones have become increasingly common, many people are finding that they can avoid toll charges on their home phones by using their mobile phones to make long-distance calls at night or on weekends, when many wireless companies provide unlimited airtime for a small monthly fee
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