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SC - No referent for 'it'

by vidhyamurali » Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:15 pm
Elk now live almost solely in the Rocky Mountains, which would make it seem that elk are mountain dwellers, while they once ranged over virtually all of the continental United States except for a small strip in the extreme Southwest.
A. Elk now live almost solely in the Rocky Mountains, which would make it seem
that elk are mountain dwellers, while
B. The fact that elk now live almost solely in the Rocky Mountains would make it
seem that they are mountain dwellers, but
C. It would seem that elk would be mountain dwellers because of their living now
solely almost in the Rocky Mountains, but still
D. Now living almost solely in the Rocky Mountains, it would seem that elk were
mountain dwellers, although
E. It seems that elk would be mountain dwellers from the fact that they now live
solely almost in the Rocky Mountains, since

Requesting help from GMATGuruNY, Dave and other experts on this SC.

I came across this question in Exam Pack 1. This question has also been seen in the paper-based tests I assume.
[spoiler]The OA uses 'it' without a referent. I may be wrong - please point out if 'it' actually has a referent in OA. The only two cases where 'it' can stand in for something other than a singular noun is a delayed 'to-infinitive' phrase or a delayed 'that' clause - my understanding from one of Guru's posts. But I don't see either phrase here. Please let me know if I have missed noticing something in the OA. If this may be a new case of the 'usage of it', please let me know its function so that I can spot such usages in future SCs.[/spoiler]

OA is B
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by MartyMurray » Wed Aug 26, 2015 9:19 pm
This is not the first time I have seen a person wonder about this.

Students may normally speak and write in ways that use it without a referent, but then when preparing for the GMAT they hear that pronouns, including it, must have a referent. So even though actually it often appears in certain expressions without a referent, and this type of usage is considered correct, people who have prepared for the GMAT seek to apply the "there must be a referent" rule and consider this type of usage of it to be incorrect.

So the upshot is that there expressions in which it is used without a referent.

One of them is it seems.

It seems to me that John was here first.

Here's another one.

It became quite apparent that rarely is the use of it without a referent discussed in GMAT forums.

Of course we have all heard this one.

It's raining.

So there are two takeaways here.

One of them is that an expression that involves the used of it without a referent may in certain cases be correctly and effectively constructed.

The second is that in general one needs to be a little careful about how one perceives and uses grammar rules when answering SC questions. The GMAT verbal section is not a grammar test, but rather a test of reasoning skills, and sometimes one has to bring to those reasoning skills to bear to figure out that a "rule" may not be quite what one thought it to be.

Logic and effectiveness trump all in SC, and not everything about the "correct" answers to GMAT SC questions is different from the way people talk in the real world.
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by DavidG@VeritasPrep » Thu Aug 27, 2015 7:25 am
English is a funny language in many ways. "It," according to usage guides, is sometimes used as dummy pronoun, or expletive, in which case, no referent is required.

But there is debate about this, as well. Take a simple example. "It is hard to understand many grammar rules." We can see what the sentence is communicating, and we can easily rewrite it so that there's no "it": "To understand many grammar rules is hard." One could argue that the "it" in the first example has a referent in "to understand many grammar rules." But one could also argue that "it" has no referent at all, and is merely a meaningless placeholder for a subject that arrives later in the sentence. I've seen different usage guides offer different explanations, but either interpretation leads to the same basic understanding of the sentence. We're talking about really esoteric stuff here. To give you an idea, The Chicago Manual of Style, which is a go-to guide for me, neglects to mention the issue at all. Ultimately, this is not an issue that you should be worried about for the GMAT. Just know that "it" can be used as a "dummy pronoun," but that we very rarely see this on the test. Most importantly, note that "it" appears in every single option of the question you posted, so clearly we need to be focusing on other elements of the sentence.
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by GMATGuruNY » Thu Aug 27, 2015 9:29 am
In some cases, it will serve as an EXPLETIVE: a placeholder pronoun serving to DELAY THE SUBJECT.
The delayed subject will typically be an infinitive phrase or a that-clause.

Two examples:
IT is easy TO LOVE CHOCOLATE.
Here, it is standing in for to love chocolate.
Conveyed meaning:
TO LOVE CHOCOLATE is easy.

IT was not until last year THAT JOHN WROTE HIS FIRST BOOK.
Here, it is standing in for that John wrote his first book.
Conveyed meaning:
THAT JOHN WROTE HIS FIRST BOOK was not until last year.

One definition of to seem is to appear to be true.

OA above: The fact that elk now live almost solely in the Rocky Mountains would make it seem that they are mountain dwellers.
Here, it is standing in for the that-clause in red.
Conveyed meaning:
The fact that elk now live almost solely in the Rocky Mountains would make that they are mountain dwellers appear to be true.
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by vidhyamurali » Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:34 am
Thanks a lot, Marty, Dave and Guru.

I realize the importance of applying rules without being too mechanical. 'Going by the ear' didn't quite work for me all the time. I am a non-native speaker. Sometimes, sentences that don't pass the test for the right usage of 'it' appear right to me. So, knowing the rules was important for me. Before I knew about the two correct usages of 'it' as an expletive (that Guru mentions), I would often be re-reading answer choices to spot a different error. In the past, I have also eliminated a correct answer choice because I didn't know about this specific usage. So, I was curious if this sentence presented another such usage and I wanted to know about it in case it appeared only in a correct answer choice. I agree it was easy to spot the right answer in this sentence as all choices presented 'it'.
Thanks Guru for the new note about 'to seem'.
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by conquistador » Fri Aug 28, 2015 7:03 am
vidhyamurali wrote:
I came across this question in Exam Pack 1. This question has also been seen in the paper-based tests I assume.
[spoiler]The OA uses 'it' without a referent. I may be wrong - please point out if 'it' actually has a referent in OA. The only two cases where 'it' can stand in for something other than a singular noun is a delayed 'to-infinitive' phrase or a delayed 'that' clause - my understanding from one of Guru's posts. But I don't see either phrase here. Please let me know if I have missed noticing something in the OA. If this may be a new case of the 'usage of it', please let me know its function so that I can spot such usages in future SCs.[/spoiler]

OA is B
Here I'm posting this expanation of shraddha, Egmat from link. I hope this helps if any doubt remains.
https://gmatclub.com/forum/elk-now-live- ... 53921.html
Hi there,

This is the sentence with the correct answer choice B:

The fact that elk now live almost solely in the Rocky Mountains would make it seem that they are mountain dwellers, but they once ranged over virtually all of the continental United States except for a small strip in the extreme Southwest.

In this sentence, "it" is not functioning as a proper pronoun. It is rather working as what is called "a placeholder". For example:

It is very windy today.

In this sentence, "it" is just functioning as a placeholder and thus does not have a definite antecedent. This is the case with the sentence in question as well.

Now, pronoun "they" is referring to "Elk" only. In three out of two choices, "Elk" has been mentioned as plural. This is not uncommon because there are many animals whose plural form does not take "s" at the end. For example: sheep, fish, deer, etc. Also note that the animals belonging to the deer family have the same singular and plural forms. "Elk" happens to be one of them. If you do not know what an "elk" is, read the answer choices. If any of the answer choices has a singular verb to with "Elk" then we may need to see if this entity is singular or plural.
However, in this sentence, it is clear that "elk" has been used as plural entity.

Hope this helps. :)
Thanks.
Shraddha
Also I get confused sometimes in case of usage of pronouns such as "it". However here I guess we can go by meaning wise keeping other confusions to a side.

Elk now live almost solely in the Rocky Mountains, which would make it seem that elk are mountain dwellers, while they once ranged over virtually all of the continental United States except for a small strip in the extreme Southwest.

Since they is used to refer Elk in non underlined portion it is correct.
The intended meaning is since Elk live solely in R mountains, they seem to be mountain dwellers.

A. Elk now live almost solely in the Rocky Mountains, which would make it seem that elk are mountain dwellers, while

which refers to Rocky mountains thereby causing meaning error. This sentence seems to mean that Rocky mountains seem that elk are mountain dwellers.

B. The fact that elk now live almost solely in the Rocky Mountains would make it seem that they are mountain dwellers, but

here it refers to fact and the meaning is intended one with sequence of events and contrast in meaning is correctly indicated with but.

C. It would seem that elk would be mountain dwellers because of their living now solely almost in the Rocky Mountains, but still

Because of is used wrongly here. The sentence that elk would be mountain dwellers is itself wrong.
And here it is mentioned that elk would be mountain dwellers due to their living.
solely almost ALSO GIVES OTHERWISE MEANING.
still ruins the contrast indicated by but also making it seem redundant.

D. Now living almost solely in the Rocky Mountains, it would seem that elk were mountain dwellers, although

who lives in Rocky mountains is not ambiguous.
were changes the meaning completely.

E. It seems that elk would be mountain dwellers from the fact that they now live
solely almost in the Rocky Mountains, since

The sentence that elk would be mountain dwellers is itself wrong. Sam error as in C.
since gives reason instead of contrast in meaning.
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by MartyMurray » Fri Aug 28, 2015 4:23 pm
vidhyamurali wrote:I realize the importance of applying rules without being too mechanical. 'Going by the ear' didn't quite work for me all the time. I am a non-native speaker. Sometimes, sentences that don't pass the test for the right usage of 'it' appear right to me. So, knowing the rules was important for me. Before I knew about the two correct usages of 'it' as an expletive (that Guru mentions), I would often be re-reading answer choices to spot a different error. In the past, I have also eliminated a correct answer choice because I didn't know about this specific usage. So, I was curious if this sentence presented another such usage and I wanted to know about it in case it appeared only in a correct answer choice. I agree it was easy to spot the right answer in this sentence as all choices presented 'it'.
That's all really interesting, and I learned a lot from what you just said about your process. So enlightening.
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by thang » Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:25 am
there is no pattern" make it seem that"

in english

am I correct? pls confirm
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by thang » Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:26 am
just post to follow because I have not ticked the box
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by aflaam » Sun Jan 17, 2016 10:13 pm
Hi Mitch,

What is the problem with C besides awkwardness?
Is repetition of would problematic?
I found their before living also somewhat problematic,

Can you elaborate what exactly is wrong with that choice?
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by GMATGuruNY » Mon Jan 18, 2016 4:34 am
aflaam wrote:Hi Mitch,

What is the problem with C besides awkwardness?
Is repetition of would problematic?
I found their before living also somewhat problematic,

Can you elaborate what exactly is wrong with that choice?
C: Elk would be mountain dwellers because of their living

Here, the usage of would (subjunctive) implies that Elk are NOT actually mountain dwellers but that they WOULD be mountain dwellers if an unspecified condition were satisfied.
Not the intended meaning.
The intended meaning is that Elk ARE actually mountain dwellers.

Also, it is not immediately clear whether their (plural) serves to refer to Elk (plural) or mountain dwellers (plural).

Lastly, their living (POSSESSIVE + VERBing) is less preferable to the more direct SUBJECT+ VERB construction in the OA (elk now live).

Eliminate C.
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