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Aristotle Q53

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Aristotle Q53

by bubbliiiiiiii » Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:36 am
53. The prisoner's dilemma is a fundamental problem in game theory, which demonstrates
why two people might not cooperate even if it is in both their best interests to do it.


A. fundamental problem in game theory, which demonstrates why two people
might not cooperate even if it is in both their best interests to do it
B. fundamental problem in game theory demonstrating why two people might
not cooperate even if it was both in their best interests to do so
C. problem fundamental to game theory that demonstrates why two people
might not cooperate even if it is in both their best interests to do it
D. fundamental problem in game theory that demonstrates two people who
might not cooperate even if it is in both their best interests to do it
E. fundamental problem in game theory that demonstrates why two
people might not cooperate even if it is in both their best interests to
do so


OA E.

Updated the OA and underlined the suspicious part of the sentence.
Last edited by bubbliiiiiiii on Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
Regards,

Pranay
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by atulmangal » Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:01 am
@Pranay

First, u forget to underline the incorrect part..please edit..

Second, A small Tip:

DO SO is correct, DO IT is almost always incorrect in GMAT

B/W, Op B and Op E, in Op B use of WAS is incorrect

IMO E
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by force5 » Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:09 am
atul i also feel the problem of B is the use of

the prisoner's dilemma .....demonstrating (this is incorrect as its suggesting an ongoing action). incorrect modifier.
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by AIM GMAT » Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:04 am
force5 wrote:atul i also feel the problem of B is the use of

the prisoner's dilemma .....demonstrating (this is incorrect as its suggesting an ongoing action). incorrect modifier.
I am with E .

Two issues tested : "that" and "do so".

I feel that a comma would have made B equally apt choice .

The prisoner's dilemma is a fundamental problem in game theory , demonstrating why two people might
not cooperate even if it was both in their best interests to do so
Thanks & Regards,
AIM GMAT
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by force5 » Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:19 am
Interesting.... AIM i see that comma has corrected the modifier problem but now there is one word which is troubling me. "WAS". sentence uses present tense and "was" is spoiling the meaning. its almost like saying the dilemma demonstrates a theory where it was not in there interest to cooperate.

Ok lets fix this small error for a while and understand if its correct now.

i am modifying the sentences to understand the construction.
(1) The prisoner's dilemma is a fundamental problem in game theory , demonstrating why two people might
not cooperate even if it is in both their best interests to do so

(2) The prisoner's dilemma is a fundamental problem in game theory that demonstrates why two
people might not cooperate even if it is in both their best interests to
do so
Is is possible to pick and answer choice now. what is the difference between the two sentences.
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by AIM GMAT » Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:30 am
Agreed , i missed the "was" .

I think the second option is better one , somewhere i read that its better to use sentences with "that " construction .
Thanks & Regards,
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by atulmangal » Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:26 am
Hey Guys, @AIM and @Force

Interesting discussion...let's discuss this from the start and share our views, i believe this gonna be a good learning...so m starting from original Op B...

@force, for original Op u post this
the prisoner's dilemma .....demonstrating (this is incorrect as its suggesting an ongoing action). incorrect modifier
Buddy, as u notice there is no COMMA before "demonstrating", so IMO that means, "demonstrating" is NOT modifying "prisoner's dilemma" why, because -ing modifier without comma modify preceding noun or noun phrase...right??? so exactly what this word "demonstrating" is modifying in this option??? well m a bit confused, but let me put my point...as according to the rule i mentioned...i think it can modify

either theory or "fundamental problem in game theory"

Just like in OG-12 D-49, "including" is modifying "generation of actors"

Now logically, i think, the demonstration should be of GAME THEORY only....not "fundamental problem in game theory" etc...so i think the modifier indeed has an issue in this choice but not because it is modifying what force has suggested...

2nd part:----
(1) The prisoner's dilemma is a fundamental problem in game theory , demonstrating why two people might
not cooperate even if it is in both their best interests to do so

(2) The prisoner's dilemma is a fundamental problem in game theory that demonstrates why two
people might not cooperate even if it is in both their best interests to
do so

Is is possible to pick and answer choice now. what is the difference between the two sentences.
Good question, actually this question forced me to think in depth too much and i arrive on this conclusion...this question can have two possible meanings and surprisingly both of them seems to me equally meaningful...see below...

1) Game theory that demonstrates....bla bla bla...means the demonstration is given of GAME'S THEORY...as in OP E, though some may suggest that, "THAT" is modifying the whole clause not just Game theory..in that case i read the basics again

2) The prisoner's dilemma is a fundamental problem in game theory , demonstrating ---> as we know , comma + ing modifies the subject and verb of the preceding clause....this sentence actually give me this meaning...

Its the prisoner's dilemma (a fundamental problem in game theory) which is demonstrating bla bla...

So, u see the difference in meaning both the choice make...now if u ask me to pick one...both seems to me correct but in GMAT i pick 1st one (choice with THAT) because i demonstration, this word looks good to describe a theory but a problem demonstrates...i doubt...thats why...

Final words, i ask u to pm David or Brian...as they discuss such issues in detail and i guess we can have a healthy discussion with them...

Thanks force for inviting me in this discussion
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by force5 » Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:55 am
thanks a lot atul for participating. I'm really enjoying the discussion.
i agree with you on part 1. demonstrating is modifying game theory in choice B. the trick is the comma there.

Part 2 is where we part ways. Hmmm actually this has been troubling me for a long time. But if i understand this is what should be correct.
(1) The prisoner's dilemma is a fundamental problem in game theory , demonstrating why two people might
not cooperate even if it is in both their best interests to do so
here demonstrating is an adverbial modifier. you are correct that it modifies prisoner's dilemma....

so its like this...

the prisoner's dilemma.....is demonstrating why......etc etc.

(2) The prisoner's dilemma is a fundamental problem in game theory that demonstrates why two
people might not cooperate even if it is in both their best interests to
do so
what i see here is a different sentence. that is introducing a restrictive clause.

hmmmm now that means. its actually saying this.........

prisoner's dilemma is.........game theory that demonstrates... ( its talking about a specific game theory that demonstrates............)

if i analyse both the sentences then they have entirely different meaning.

going back to where we started. the sentence actually wants to say that

The Prisoner's dilemma is the problem ..... and the dilemma is demonstrating .........etc etc...

hence our first construction should be correct.... ( , + ing )


oooops am i sounding difficult to some now? But this is what my understanding is.

BTW- i have PM'ed Brian and David too.
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by atulmangal » Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:08 am
Hey Force,

I completely agree with u on part 2:

THAT Demonstrates ---> The verb Demonstrates is for whole preceding clause not just for game theory

Now let me compile the understanding:-

Original Op B:-- the maximum limit (in terms of modifying) of the word "demonstrating" is "fundamental problem in game theory" and thats why its incorrect here as this fails to answer the specific fundamental problem "the prisoner's dilemma"

Now, for new Op

The prisoner's dilemma is a fundamental problem in game theory , demonstrating why two people might not cooperate even if it is in both their best interests to do so

This is equivalent to the OA E and both choices are correct...right???
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by force5 » Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:29 am
Exactly... but do you see a stir here.

Getting back to the original choices that were posted.

Dont you think that now after analyzing the choices. the original answer E is actually not giving the information that we want.

it is the prisoner's dilemma which demonstrates why 2 people might not........
E is making the game theory responsible for the demonstration.... which should be incorrect.

I think Even E is not a good enough choice.... what do you say??
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by atulmangal » Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:33 am
Thats what i post in my post (the lengthy one) that i think demonstrates must describe theory...

Its getting messy and confusing, let's wait and see what experts will suggest...
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by AIM GMAT » Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:34 am
atulmangal wrote:Thats what i post in my post (the lengthy one) that i think demonstrates must describe theory...

Its getting messy and confusing, let's wait and see what experts will suggest...

Well , good discussion , but i am totally confused now about the usage of THAT .I have some queries :-

Is it neccesary that THAT modifies the word touching THAT -- i know very silly question but guys this sentence is such that has resonanted this doubt .
Quote:
(1) The prisoner's dilemma is a fundamental problem in game theory , demonstrating why two people might
not cooperate even if it is in both their best interests to do so

(2) The prisoner's dilemma is a fundamental problem in game theory that demonstrates why two
people might not cooperate even if it is in both their best interests to
do so

Is is possible to pick and answer choice now. what is the difference between the two sentences.
The option higlighted in blue , we can ask the question what demonstrates ??
Answer got is "The prisoner's dilemma "


Correct me if i am deviating in wrong direction .... lets keep the fire ignited ... we will learn a lot about MODIFIERS from this thread .
Thanks & Regards,
AIM GMAT
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by force5 » Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:00 am
Hi AIM

according to my knowledge that can modify both a word and a phrase / clause. It doesnt need to touch the word it modifies too.

do you remember this question
With its plan to develop seven and a half acres of shore land, Cleveland is but one of a large number of communities on the Great Lakes that is looking to its waterfront as a way to improve the quality of urban life and attract new businesses.
here that modifies communities hence we have to use "are" instead of "is".

In here- we feel - that is modifying game theory and hence introducing a restrictive clause. but this is spoiling the meaning of the sentence. its actually the prisoner's dilemma which .... demonstrates....
hence we feel all choices are incorrect.

waiting for an expert to guide us from here....
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by Brian@VeritasPrep » Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:19 am
Hey guys,

Thanks for the PM to join in! You know, this question is one for which the discussion you're having is exponentially more valuable than the question itself. Reading the question a second time I actually think it's pretty responsibly written...it may not be exactly as tight as the official questions, but the thought process it elicits is great practice.

As I typically do, I'll advise you to think of the big-picture decision points first:

Hopefully we can all agree that B is definitely wrong - there's no use for the past-tense "was" there, because we know for sure that we're talking in the indicative tense "The prisoner's dilemma is...".

And I think we can all agree that the phrase "to do it..." at the end of A, C, and D uses a pronoun that doesn't fit - there's no clear referent for "it", whereas "to do so" parallels the verb "cooperate".

So that leaves you with E, and we've done so on the basis of two major, major error categories: Verb Tense and Pronoun. If you did it that way, you've shown that you can think big-picture on these questions and that's a big step.

I can see where the modifier "in game theory" splitting "problem" from "that" in choice E is a little unnerving, but especially once you notice that all of the answer choices use it (or in C, "to game theory"), you're stuck with it and your job becomes to make the best sense of the meaning that you can. And one thing I teach repeatedly is that, if you're not using a modifier as your decision point to eliminate a choice, you should read as though it weren't there to make better, more concise sense of the remaining portions of the sentence. If you do that, it reads pretty quickly:

"The dilemma is a problem that demonstrates..."

So while you might prefer something different, in SC you don't get to rewrite a sixth answer choice that's even better than the five they gave you. Your best hope is to use the major decision points and work your way down to awkwardness/idioms/concision as you go, and that will lead you to the right answer.


Just a few more thoughts here:

-I wonder whether the author of the question wanted the fact that "which" should really refer to "problem" and not "theory" to be a flaw in choice A. While a lot of us know about game theory and the prisoner's dilemma, that's outside knowledge that the GMAT can't really test, so I don't think that would be a valid, sole decision point on the GMAT. But like I said above, "it" at the end of that sentence is an unclear pronoun so it doesn't matter.

-D has that extra flaw of "demonstrates two people" - that's illogical...the theory demonstrates why "any two people" would do something; not "these two people" who do somethign.

-C has an illogical meaning, to - "problem fundamental to game theory" means that the problem is a threat to game theory, and that's not what the sentence is saying.

-And then B has the tense issue, so there are definite flaws in most of the other answer choices but not with E, so E stands above.


I hope that helps...
Brian Galvin
GMAT Instructor
Chief Academic Officer
Veritas Prep

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by force5 » Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:57 am
thanks Brian. i have made changes in 2 sentences. Can you please suggest which one is better and do they mean the same??

(1) The prisoner's dilemma is a fundamental problem in game theory , demonstrating why two people might
not cooperate even if it is in both their best interests to do so

(2) The prisoner's dilemma is a fundamental problem in game theory that demonstrates why two
people might not cooperate even if it is in both their best interests to
do so
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