BREAKING: Target Test Prep releases Brand New 2026 On Demand GMAT prep course

Redeem

usage of "WHICH" without a comma preceding

This topic has expert replies
Post new topic Locked
Previous Topic Next Topic
User avatar
Legendary Member
Posts: 752
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:47 am
Thanked: 20 times
Followed by:10 members
GMAT Score:700

usage of "WHICH" without a comma preceding

by prachich1987 » Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:42 am
In the mid-fifth century, Rome was threatened by Hunnish troops who, led by Attila the Hun, demonstrated his military superiority over the weakened, recently conquered city.

A)who, led by Attila the Hun, demonstrated his military superiority
B)which, led by Attila the hun, demonstrated their military superiority
C)that attila the hun led, who demonstrated his military superiority
D)that Attila the hun led in demonstration of their military superiority
E)that were led by Attila the Hun, who demonstrated his military superiority.


Source : Kaplan 800
OA : B
Can we use "which" without a comma preceding it??
Last edited by prachich1987 on Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top
Source: — Sentence Correction |
User avatar
Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
Posts: 434
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:42 pm
Location: Bangalore, India
Thanked: 91 times
Followed by:46 members

by EducationAisle » Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:13 am
Haven't seen any usage of 'which' without a comma on GMAT, except when 'which' is used in a prepositional phrase. Example, following would be correct:

England is the team due to which Austarlia lost the Ashes.

'to which' has 'which' appearing in a prepositional phrase ('to which') and is hence correct.

Specifically, with respect to this question, would expect someone from Kaplan to reply.
Ashish
MBA - ISB, GMAT - 99th Percentile
GMAT Faculty @ EducationAisle
www.EducationAisle.com

Sentence Correction Nirvana available at:

a) Amazon: Sentence Correction Nirvana

b) Flipkart: Sentence Correction Nirvana

Now! Preview the entire Grammar Section of Sentence Correction Nirvana at pothi
Top
User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:26 pm
Location: New York City
Thanked: 68 times
Followed by:37 members
GMAT Score:780

by Adam@Knewton » Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:51 pm
prachich1987 wrote:In the mid-fifth century, Rome was threatened by Hunnish troops who, led by Attila the Hun, demonstrated his military superiority over the weakened, recently conquered city.

A)who, led by Attila the Hun, demonstrated his military superiority over
B)which, led by Attila the hun, demonstrated their military superiority
C)that attila the hun led, who demonstrated his military superiority
D)that Attila the hun led in demonstration of their military superiority
E)that were led by Attila the Hun, who demonstrated his military superiority.


Source : Kaplan 800
OA : B
Can we use "which" without a comma preceding it??
I know I'm not from Kaplan (anymore) but I have some thoughts on this question:

First, are you sure none of the choices besides (A) have the word "over" at the end? It doesn't make sense to read "...demonstrated their military superiority the weakened, recently conquered city."

Second, "troops" are still people so, to me, "who" seems correct.

Finally, with regards to the comma before which, according to the Chicago Manual of Style, "which" clauses, which are non-restrictive (that is, they introduce information that is not necessary to the meaning of the sentence as a whole, such as this entire "which" clause here going back to the comma before the parentheses), will always be set off by commas from the rest of the sentence. "That" clauses, on the other hand, which are restrictive (that is, esssential to the meaning of the sentence), should not be set off by commas.

So, in the above sentence, the entire modifying clause does seem necessary to the sentence's meaning, so "which" wouldn't be correct and it should, in fact, be "that" without a comma -- meanwhile, "which" without a comma seems wrong because, really, it's not supposed to appear without a comma, for reasons stated above.

Now, the punchline: I have been told that this distinction is no longer tested on the GMAT. So, while all I have said above would be accurate and useful if I were teaching English Composition or editing a manuscript, it may very well not be relevant on the GMAT. So, should "which" have a comma before it? Yes. Does that make this wrong on the GMAT? No.

commas are not tested on the GMAT!

Hope this helps, annoying a response though it may be :)
Prep Smarter, Score Higher
www.knewton.com
Top
User avatar
Legendary Member
Posts: 752
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:47 am
Thanked: 20 times
Followed by:10 members
GMAT Score:700

by prachich1987 » Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:17 pm
Thanks Adam for the explanation

1) I think Kaplan rejected A not because it has WHO but because of the usage of pronoun singular pronoun HIS to refer to troops

2) Secondly based on your explanation above I understand that on GMAT if there is some choice using which for introdcuing a restrictive clause AND if it is not preceded by a comma,then we cannot reject the choice for this reason,

Correct me if I am wrong
Top
User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:26 pm
Location: New York City
Thanked: 68 times
Followed by:37 members
GMAT Score:780

by Adam@Knewton » Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:24 pm
prachich1987 wrote:Thanks Adam for the explanation

1) I think Kaplan rejected A not because it has WHO but because of the usage of pronoun singular pronoun HIS to refer to troops
Perhaps, but the sentence isn't wrong to say they demonstrated his superiority as a commander, right? Also, the absence of the word "over" in (B) is definitely an error. Perhaps a typo, but still an error.
2) Secondly based on your explanation above I understand that on GMAT if there is some choice using which for introdcuing a restrictive clause AND if it is not preceded by a comma,then we cannot reject the choice for this reason,

Correct me if I am wrong
Exactly: although there should be a comma, don't eliminate anything because of this on the GMAT.
Prep Smarter, Score Higher
www.knewton.com
Top
User avatar
Legendary Member
Posts: 752
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:47 am
Thanked: 20 times
Followed by:10 members
GMAT Score:700

by prachich1987 » Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:26 pm
OVER should be underlined.
I apologize for the same.I have edited the question so that forum users don't get confused
Top
User avatar
Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
Posts: 434
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:42 pm
Location: Bangalore, India
Thanked: 91 times
Followed by:46 members

by EducationAisle » Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:00 pm
I have a different opinion on that. GMAT acknowledges that the usage of which limited to just non-restrictive clauses is controversial.

In my opinion their acknowledgement of the very existence of this issue means that GMAT would not have a correct option that uses which in a non-restrictive sense (without the commas). However, since GMAT itself does not take a strong position on that, the absence of a comma before which would perhaps never be the only reason why an option would be wrong.

But to me, thats a bit of a moot point, since we are just looking for a reason to dis-regard a choice, not all the reasons. Absence of comma before 'which' is a reason.
Ashish
MBA - ISB, GMAT - 99th Percentile
GMAT Faculty @ EducationAisle
www.EducationAisle.com

Sentence Correction Nirvana available at:

a) Amazon: Sentence Correction Nirvana

b) Flipkart: Sentence Correction Nirvana

Now! Preview the entire Grammar Section of Sentence Correction Nirvana at pothi
Top
User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:26 pm
Location: New York City
Thanked: 68 times
Followed by:37 members
GMAT Score:780

by Adam@Knewton » Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:09 pm
EducationAisle wrote:I have a different opinion on that. GMAT acknowledges that the usage of which limited to just non-restrictive clauses is controversial.

In my opinion their acknowledgement of the very existence of this issue means that GMAT would not have a correct option that uses which in a non-restrictive sense (without the commas). However, since GMAT itself does not take a strong position on that, the absence of a comma before which would perhaps never be the only reason why an option would be wrong.

But to me, thats a bit of a moot point, since we are just looking for a reason to dis-regard a choice, not all the reasons. Absence of comma before 'which' is a reason.
I'm sorry, Ashish, but I have to disagree. The GMAT acknowledging that it's controversial means that using "which" for a restrictive clause would NOT be a reason to eliminate a choice, because according to the GMAT it's not "wrong." Furthermore, the GMAT very explicitly does not test punctuation (the way, for instance, the ACT does directly); as a result, eliminating any choice because of comma usage is a very, very dangerous tactic.

Although eliminating choices for, as you say, "a reason" is essential, we shouldn't hunt for reasons given rules not tested on the GMAT. In Sentence Correction, it only matters when comparing two (or more) options, and as you say, they'd never have this comma be the only difference. If a test-taker thinks it's the only difference ... he or she is certainly missing something else. If we're making our decision based on punctuation, we are not preparing ourselves for the GMAT.
Prep Smarter, Score Higher
www.knewton.com
Top
User avatar
Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
Posts: 434
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:42 pm
Location: Bangalore, India
Thanked: 91 times
Followed by:46 members

by EducationAisle » Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:54 pm
AdamKnewton wrote:The GMAT acknowledging that it's controversial means that using "which" for a restrictive clause would NOT be a reason to eliminate a choice
We're not totally tangential actually Adam, except that what I am saying is:

The GMAT acknowledging that it's controversial means that using "which" for a restrictive clause would NOT be the only reason to eliminate a choice.
Ashish
MBA - ISB, GMAT - 99th Percentile
GMAT Faculty @ EducationAisle
www.EducationAisle.com

Sentence Correction Nirvana available at:

a) Amazon: Sentence Correction Nirvana

b) Flipkart: Sentence Correction Nirvana

Now! Preview the entire Grammar Section of Sentence Correction Nirvana at pothi
Top
User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:26 pm
Location: New York City
Thanked: 68 times
Followed by:37 members
GMAT Score:780

by Adam@Knewton » Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:00 pm
EducationAisle wrote:
AdamKnewton wrote:The GMAT acknowledging that it's controversial means that using "which" for a restrictive clause would NOT be a reason to eliminate a choice
We're not totally tangential actually Adam, except that what I am saying is:

The GMAT acknowledging that it's controversial means that using "which" for a restrictive clause would NOT be the only reason to eliminate a choice.
I agree -- however, I think it would in fact never be a reason to eliminate a choice. As you say above, and I totally agree, the GMAT wouldn't give us this as the "reason" for a choice being wrong. Therefore, if a test-taker, particularly one who isn't a grammar expert, thinks that this is their reason for elimination ... what this really means is that the test-taker is missing some other clue and should read more carefully for it. If I encourage a student of mine to see the missing comma and think ... well, honestly, think anything at all, I'm leading them into a trap.
Prep Smarter, Score Higher
www.knewton.com
Top
User avatar
Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
Posts: 434
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:42 pm
Location: Bangalore, India
Thanked: 91 times
Followed by:46 members

by EducationAisle » Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:12 pm
Sure Adam. And in the interest of bandwidth, let us keep this as the last post on this discussion, especially since the topic seems to have come a full circle...

When training for GMAT, my intention is to have students eliminate possibly wrong choices as quickly as possible. My intention as an instructor is obviouly not to make students emerge as Grammar puritans (that role is left for us instructors:)). Hence, 'which' used in a non-restrictive sense is a big clue for me.
Ashish
MBA - ISB, GMAT - 99th Percentile
GMAT Faculty @ EducationAisle
www.EducationAisle.com

Sentence Correction Nirvana available at:

a) Amazon: Sentence Correction Nirvana

b) Flipkart: Sentence Correction Nirvana

Now! Preview the entire Grammar Section of Sentence Correction Nirvana at pothi
Top
Newbie | Next Rank: 10 Posts
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 6:10 pm

by vikram.sumer » Tue May 01, 2012 6:16 am
I checked over 5 explanations of this question. Finally, its Adam who nailed it....your explanation makes perfect sense.
Top
Post new topic Locked
• Page 1 of 1