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"And" followed by a "Comma"

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"And" followed by a "Comma"

by nadib002 » Tue May 03, 2011 9:11 am
1) These programs can increase high school graduation rates, and graduates earn more, pay more taxes, and rely less on state-provided health care.

2) They pay from $5 to $100 a week for city-sponsored child care. Few will be able to pay the full cost on their own, and, without a safe and educational place for their children, many won't be able to keep working.



In the first sentence there is no comma(,) after the "and" whereas in the second there is a comma(,) after the "and"

Grammatically what is the difference between the two and when should we use one over the other?

Experts, please help. Thank you
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by mundasingh123 » Tue May 03, 2011 10:40 am
BTW Gmat wont be testing commas
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by nadib002 » Tue May 03, 2011 12:25 pm
@mundasingh123

Thank you for your response. The question was geared more towards the coordinating conjunction, "and".

The reason I posted the question was to understand the difference between the two because I have seen sentences in the above stated format and would like to know whether grammatically there are any differences between the two.

Thank you
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by mundasingh123 » Tue May 03, 2011 12:59 pm
are u sure that u copied the second sentence correctly from the source where you saw it .I havnt come across an and with a comma after it . The and in the second sentence , IMO, uses the cooma to mark off the second clause after the and . If you removed the the comma after the and , you would make the "without a safe ... " parallel to "on their own ". so the comma is required to add meaning to "many won't be able to keep working"
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by bubbliiiiiiii » Thu May 05, 2011 2:36 am
These programs can increase high school graduation rates, and graduates earn more, pay more taxes, and rely less on state-provided health care.
I doubt the comma usage here. I believe that if comma is used before and both parts of connector and should refer to a common subject.

Is this your self made example?
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by atulmangal » Thu May 05, 2011 5:17 am
@nadib002

COMMA + FANBOYS: CONNECT TWO INDEPENDENT CLAUSES

FANBOYS = For, And, Nor, But, Or, Yet, So.

These programs can increase high school graduation rates, and graduates earn more, pay more taxes , and rely less on state-provided health care.

here in this sentence we have two Independent clauses (IC's) so the first COMMA + AND seems correct but the second COMMA + AND (Red color) seems incorrect to me...because here COMMA + AND is connecting the last element of a list and i guess only AND is required not a COMMA + AND.

second sentence:

Few will be able to pay the full cost on their own, and, without a safe and educational place for their children, many won't be able to keep working.

here Green color part are IC's so COMMA + AND (blue color) looks okay to me But the COMMA (red color) after AND doesn't look correct.

From where do u copied these examples???
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by Brian@VeritasPrep » Thu May 05, 2011 2:00 pm
Good discussion - and, Atul, I asked you about FANBOYS in another thread but just picked that up here...thanks! More fodder for making fun of Apple fanboys (and, admittedly, I have an iPhone, iPad, and Macbook, so I'm probably making fun of myself...)


In that first example, I agree with Atul that the first "and" is used to separate independent clauses and is used properly there because it introduces a subject (graduates) right after.

The second "and" in that first example - honestly, I can't see the GMAT testing this with the comma and its relationship to the third item in a list after "and". I'd bet a pretty large sum of money that the GMAT will just be consistent any time it has a list like that so that it's never the decision point for a right-or-wrong answer. Growing up I had multiple teachers give me different opinions on whether you use a comma there or not, and I've seen it written so often either way that I just don't think it's a valid, testable item for the GMAT. So I don't see anything wrong with that first one at all.


For the second example, the comma after "and" introduces a modifier: "without a safe and educational place for their children". And because the modifier is nonessential to the meaning of the sentence, the commas are justified. So the second sentence is fine, too - and the rationale is that the commas don't belong to "and", but rather belong to the modifier. It's very similar to saying:

Few will be able to pay the full cost on their own. Without a safe place for their children, many won't be able to keep working.

All that we're doing in the "and" sentence is linking those two independent clauses with the word "and", but that introductory modifier for "many won't be able to..." is still a valid modifier, and it needs to be separated by commas.
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by bubbliiiiiiii » Thu May 05, 2011 10:16 pm
Hi Brian,

Thanks for providing your inputs and sharing concepts pertaining to usage of AND.

I am really confused, as I am also referring to other thread you mentioned in your post.

So, just wanted to summarize my understanding and get it verified from you and fellow bloggers.


Conjuctions (FANBOYS) - For, And, Nor, But, Or, Yet and So - are used to connect two independent clauses*.

* Independent clause (IC) is a sentence which has a subject and a verb.

Getting specific to AND.

Usage#1:
AND is usually used to identify the last element in a list.
Ex: BMW vehicles are stylish, costly and luxurious.
Ex: BMW vehicles are stylish, costly, and luxurious.

Both the statements above are correct.

However, when a comma is used before AND that seperates only two items in a list, the sentence is considered to be erroneous.

BMW vehicles are stylish, and luxurious. --> Wrong.
BMW vehicles are stylish and luxurious. --> Correct.

Usage#2
COMMA + AND
This version is used to connect a pair of independent clauses and to separate values in a list (as shown above).
Ex: BMW vehicles are stylish, costly, and Audi vehicles are as good as those produced by BMW.

Here there are two ICs.
1. BMW vehicles are stylish, costly
, and
2. Audi vehicles are as good as those produced by BMW.

Combining Usage#1 and Usage#2 in second sentence.
BMW vehicles are stylish and costly, and Audi vehicles are as good as those produced by BMW.

Usage#3:
IC COMMA AND COMMA modifier COMMA IC.

This is valid only if AND is proceeded by a pair of commas.

Ex:
BMW vehicles are stylish and costly, and, German automobile manufacturer, Audi manufacture vehicles as good as those manufactured by BMW. ----- CORRECT

BMW vehicles are stylish and costly, and, Audi manufacture vehicles as good as those manufactured by BMW. --- WRONG

German automobile manufacturer, BMW manufactures stylish and costly vehicles, and, German automobile manufacturer, Audi manufacture vehicles as good as those manufactured by BMW.---- CORRECT

More simplified version could be:
German automobile manufacturers, BMW and Audi, manufacture comaparably good vehicles, and, considered to be stylish and rich by many people, SUVs are manufacture by many other companies.

Please add incase I missed something in the usage of AND.

Also, can all these concepts be applied to FANBOYS as well?

@Atul, Thanks dude for bringing up the discussion. :)
Last edited by bubbliiiiiiii on Wed May 11, 2011 6:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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by bubbliiiiiiii » Thu May 05, 2011 11:38 pm
This statement is from an email that I have recently come across.

What you guys think? Is this a valid construction?

I am doubtful on the second and with comma.
Could you please download and apply the fix on your machine, and let us know incase of any concerns.
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by nadib002 » Fri May 06, 2011 11:37 am
@Atul and @Brian

Thank you for your responses. The original sentences were taken from a news article.

@bubbliii

Could you please download and apply the fix on your machine, and let us know incase of any concerns.

Based on the COMMA+AND+IC rule, I believe the sentence above is correct.

@Atul, @Brian, what do yo guys say?

Thank you
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by Brian@VeritasPrep » Fri May 06, 2011 4:05 pm
Hey nadib,

Thanks for the discussion!

You know what's funny about your example? I think it's probably correct, but for a reason that the GMAT doesn't test. Because this sentence is a command, the "you" is implied. For example you could correctly say:

Please stop at the grocery store on your way home.

And there's no subject, but because it's a command the subject is implied as "the recipient of this statement".

So in this case, even though the comma splits the subject "you" from the verb "let", the subject was implied to begin with because it's a command.

Now, if they made this indicative and not a command, the comma would create a comma splice:

He downloaded and applied the fix on his machine, and called them with his concerns.

There the comma leaves the second half of the sentence without a subject, so that would be wrong.



So... this kind of demonstrates what I was saying on another thread today, too - I don't know that you can ever get airtight/100% perfect at the comma splice rule, so I'd look for other reasons to eliminate sentences first and use this as a second option. (In this case, the "could you" at the beginning creates a question, so I'd ding this sentence for not having a question mark at the end!)

One other example of when the COMMA + FANBOYS rule could lead you astray is a modifier that needs a comma. For example, you could correctly say that:

He downloaded and applied the fix on his machine and, having not found any problems with the installation, deleted the customer service contact information from his phone.

In this case, the commas belong to the modifier "having not..." and don't create a comma splice. So the comma splice rule is a good one to know and be aware of, but for me it's definitely not one of my top 4-5 decision points when looking at an SC question.
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by lunarpower » Sun May 08, 2011 10:30 pm
all of the commas are correct.
1) These programs can increase high school graduation rates, and graduates earn more, pay more taxes, and rely less on state-provided health care.
the first "comma + and" separates independent clauses (complete sentences) from each other; i think this usage is well known to most posters here (correct me if i'm wrong about that).

the second "comma + and" is part of the parallel structure "X, Y, and Z".
in the standard american written english used on the gmat, commas must be used here in any series of 3 or more things; e.g., "X, Y, and Z" and "A, B, C, and D" are correct, but "X, Y and Z" and "A, B, C and D" are incorrect.
this convention clashes with (a) british usage and (b) american newspaper usage, but it's the convention that the gmat (along with most other american sources) uses, so you should get accustomed to it.

Few will be able to pay the full cost on their own, and, without a safe and educational place for their children, many won't be able to keep working.
also correct.

if a sentence starts with an initial modifier, then, in attaching that sentence to another one, you must place a comma before the initial modifier.

in fact, i just followed this rule above:
2nd clause by itself:
in attaching that sentence to another one, you must place a comma before the initial modifier.
(note initial modifier)
whole thing:
if a sentence starts with an initial modifier, then, in attaching that sentence to another one, you must place a comma before the initial modifier.

same thing here:
2nd clause by itself:
Without a safe and educational place for their children, many won't be able to keep working.
whole thing:
Few will be able to pay the full cost on their own, and, without a safe and educational place for their children, many won't be able to keep working.

this comma has nothing whatsoever to do with the "and"; if you process it as "comma + and", you are not breaking the sentence down correctly.
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by atulmangal » Sun May 08, 2011 11:06 pm
@Ron

Thanks for the post. One more question, see this example

Recently implemented shift-work equations based on studies of the human sleep cycle have reduced sickness, sleeping on the job, and fatigue among shift workers, and have raised production efficiency in various industries.

In the above example, i understand why we use COMMA + AND (In green color), but is the use of COMMA + AND (in red color) is correct?????

The first one in green color is a part of a list, but the second one is not a part of list...i'm actually treating

sickness, sleeping on the job, and fatigue among shift workers = A
production efficiency = B

so saying this,

human sleep cycle have reduced A, and have raised B. ---> isn't this incorrect?

Please clear
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by lunarpower » Mon May 09, 2011 4:18 am
atulmangal wrote:@Ron

Thanks for the post. One more question, see this example

Recently implemented shift-work equations based on studies of the human sleep cycle have reduced sickness, sleeping on the job, and fatigue among shift workers, and have raised production efficiency in various industries.

In the above example, i understand why we use COMMA + AND (In green color), but is the use of COMMA + AND (in red color) is correct?????

The first one in green color is a part of a list, but the second one is not a part of list...i'm actually treating

sickness, sleeping on the job, and fatigue among shift workers = A
production efficiency = B

so saying this,

human sleep cycle have reduced A, and have raised B. ---> isn't this incorrect?

Please clear
where are you getting this example? it looks like someone has made an unsuccessful attempt at transforming problem OG12 #134 into something else.
go take a look at the original -- you'll notice that it doesn't have this problem.

who made this version?
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by atulmangal » Mon May 09, 2011 7:00 am
lunarpower wrote:
where are you getting this example? it looks like someone has made an unsuccessful attempt at transforming problem OG12 #134 into something else.
go take a look at the original -- you'll notice that it doesn't have this problem.

who made this version?
You are right @Ron, this example is from OG and OG doesn't include such error. Actually we were discussing this question and same concepts related to COMMA + AND usage in this thread (link given below). A fellow mate modified the Op A, and asked whether this modified version is valid or not. I thought there is an error of COMMA + AND as i mentioned in my earlier post but need an Expert's confirmation that m i thinking correct, that's why posted the same.

https://www.beatthegmat.com/recently-imp ... 82384.html

Original Question:

Recently implemented "shift-work equations" based on studies of the human sleep cycle have reduced sickness, sleeping on the job, fatigue among shift workers, and have raised production efficiency in various industries.

(A) fatigue among shift workers, and have raised
(B) fatigue among shift workers, and raised
(C) and fatigue among shift workers while raising
(D) lowered fatigue among shift workers, and raised
(E) and fatigue among shift workers was lowered while raising
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