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mohish: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 32; Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:29 am; Thanked: 1 times

by mohish » Sun May 24, 2009 5:04 am

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Researchers have found that individuals who have been blind from birth, and who thus have never seen anyone gesture, nevertheless make hand motions when speaking just as frequently and in virtually the same way as sighted people do, and that they will gesture even when conversing with another blind person.

a. who thus have never seen anyone gesture, nevertheless make hand motions when speaking just as frequently and in virtually the same way as sighted people do, and that they will gesture
b. who thus never saw anyone gesturing, nevertheless make hand motions when speaking just as frequent and in virtually the same way as sighted people did, and that they will gesture
c. who thus have never seen anyone gesture, nevertheless made hand motions when speaking just as frequently and in virtually the same way as sighted people do, as well as gesturing
d. thus never having seen anyone gesture, nevertheless made hand motions when speaking just as frequent and in virtually the same way as sighted people did, as well as gesturing
e. thus never having seen anyone gesture, nevertheless to make hand motions when speaking just as frequently and in virtually the same way as sighted people do, and to gesture

OA: A

Can someone pls explain how parallelism is maintained in A? Does "that they will gesture" not inhibit parallelism, since it is in 'future' tense?

Source: Beat The GMAT — Sentence Correction | Sun May 24, 2009 5:04 am

kc_raj: Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts; Posts: 117; Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 7:41 am; Thanked: 5 times

IMO

by kc_raj » Sun May 24, 2009 5:54 am

IMO correct is A

B 'make' and did are not in same tense
C 'made' and do are not in same tense
D just as frequent should be frequently
e nevertheless to make is awkward to read

perfectstranger: Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts; Posts: 177; Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:06 amFollowed by: 1 member; Thanked: 2 times

by perfectstranger » Tue Jun 09, 2009 3:44 pm

I am very confused with the paralelism in that question . OG Diagnostic Test #46 . May someone give a detailed explanation.

rs2010: Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts; Posts: 232; Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 4:14 pmFollowed by: 1 member; Thanked: 14 times; GMAT Score:760

by rs2010 » Tue Jun 09, 2009 3:50 pm

ok here you go ...
better construction is

I have never seen a person like him not I never saw a person like him.

So you have 2 choices C and A.

If you follow closely then C uses made that means sentence is going in past while we are dealing in preset. so you need use make.

A wins.

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Stacey Koprince: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 2228; Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 3:28 pmFollowed by: 694 members; Location: Montreal, Canada; Thanked: 639 times; GMAT Score:780

by Stacey Koprince » Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:40 am

Received a PM asking me to respond.

We (the experts) are technically not supposed to discuss OG questions. So here's this other made-up sentence that I just happened to write - maybe it will be useful.

GMAT students have found that students who have not taken the official test, and who thus have never seen the inside of an official testing center, are very nervous before the arrive, and that they will sometimes meditate in order to calm down.

GMAT students have found that X, and that Y
The word "and" indicates that parallelism is required. When parallelism is required, only the main word needs to be parallel - not everything. In this case, we need the word "that" to start both clauses. Also note that the first word in X, students, is also the first word in Y (the pronoun "they" refers to students). The main word, then, is a noun - each clause is something about the students. We're good - that's all that's required as far as parallelism is concerned.

that X
that students who A, and who thus B, ...
Once again, the word "and" indicates that parallelism is required. In this case, though, the noun "students" applies to both, and the word "who" starts both clauses (as with "that," "who" is necessary to indicate parallelism between the two). The main word(s) following each "who" = present-perfect verb. (have not taken, have never seen). So, for this part, we're also good.

Be careful about taking parallelism too far. If the two main parallel items are verbs, then yes, those verbs should be parallel. But if the two main parallel items are not verbs, then any verbs after that aren't necessarily required to be parallel.

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real2008: Legendary Member; Posts: 527; Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 12:06 am; Thanked: 7 times

by real2008 » Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:48 am

perfectstranger wrote:I am very confused with the paralelism in that question . OG Diagnostic Test #46 . May someone give a detailed explanation.

goelmohit2002: Legendary Member; Posts: 1799; Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:03 amFollowed by: 2 members; Thanked: 36 times

by goelmohit2002 » Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:53 am

Stacey Koprince wrote: GMAT students have found that X, and that Y
The word "and" indicates that parallelism is required. When parallelism is required, only the main word needs to be parallel - not everything. In this case, we need the word "that" to start both clauses. Also note that the first word in X, students, is also the first word in Y (the pronoun "they" refers to students). The main word, then, is a noun - each clause is something about the students. We're good - that's all that's required as far as parallelism is concerned.

Hi Stacey,

Many thanks for the wonderful explanation.

Can you please tell do we necessarily require "that" before both X and Y...as told by you above....

is it not OK to say:

GMAT students have found that X, and Y.

Where both X and Y are two independent clauses connected by conjunction "and"

If the above is wrong....can you please tell why the above is wrong ?

Thanks
Mohit

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Stacey Koprince: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 2228; Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 3:28 pmFollowed by: 694 members; Location: Montreal, Canada; Thanked: 639 times; GMAT Score:780

by Stacey Koprince » Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:04 pm

As a general rule, no, we don't absolutely need to repeat the "that." But, in this sentence, I think we do have to, because the "X" part is very lengthy. The "that" is a very clear signal to the reader that we are pulling the sentence back up to the "that X" level and offering a parallel "that Y" (as opposed to introducing something that is actually a subset of X and parallel to something else that's contained within X).

goelmohit2002: Legendary Member; Posts: 1799; Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:03 amFollowed by: 2 members; Thanked: 36 times

by goelmohit2002 » Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:11 pm

Stacey Koprince wrote:As a general rule, no, we don't absolutely need to repeat the "that." But, in this sentence, I think we do have to, because the "X" part is very lengthy. The "that" is a very clear signal to the reader that we are pulling the sentence back up to the "that X" level and offering a parallel "that Y" (as opposed to introducing something that is actually a subset of X and parallel to something else that's contained within X).

Thanks a ton Stacey !!!

Can you please look into the related issue at the below thread....here for kicking out D....OG says we need to have "that" after "and"....is it because the first part there is

that <verb>

second part does not start with <verb> after "and"

https://www.beatthegmat.com/uncontrolled ... tml#169856

goelmohit2002: Legendary Member; Posts: 1799; Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:03 amFollowed by: 2 members; Thanked: 36 times

by goelmohit2002 » Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:19 pm

Hi Stacey,

One related "that" parallelism doubt. Is it necessary to have comma before and in case of that parallelism too....similar to case with normal "and" conjucntion.

Can you please tell which of the following two are the acceptable ones in GMAT ?

a) GMAT students have found that X and that Y.( No comma there)
b) GMAT students have found that X, and that Y. ( Comma there)

Where both X and Y are two independent clauses connected by conjunction "and"

Many thanks Again.

Alpha800: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 84; Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:18 pm; Location: Silicon Valley; Thanked: 4 times

by Alpha800 » Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:03 pm

Stacey Koprince wrote:Received a PM asking me to respond.

We (the experts) are technically not supposed to discuss OG questions. So here's this other made-up sentence that I just happened to write - maybe it will be useful.

GMAT students have found that students who have

Stacey, can you comment on my question, which is directly related to this question from the OG, that I raised in another thread: https://www.beatthegmat.com/question-re- ... 40431.html

Thanks.

GMAT/MBA Expert

Stacey Koprince: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 2228; Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 3:28 pmFollowed by: 694 members; Location: Montreal, Canada; Thanked: 639 times; GMAT Score:780

by Stacey Koprince » Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:33 am

a) GMAT students have found that X and that Y.( No comma there)
b) GMAT students have found that X, and that Y. ( Comma there)

Where both X and Y are two independent clauses connected by conjunction "and"

Example (b) does NOT show two independent clauses connected by the conjunction "and." "that Y" is not an independent clause - remember you have to include everything after the word "and."

GMAT students have found that the sky is blue and that grass is green.

Independent clause: GMAT students have found that the sky is blue
Dependent clause: that grass is green

So you would NOT use a comma before the "and" in this setup.

If you had:
GMAT students have found that the sky is blue, and LSAT students have found that the grass is green.

Now, you have two independent clauses - so you'd use the comma.

GMAT/MBA Expert

Stacey Koprince: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 2228; Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 3:28 pmFollowed by: 694 members; Location: Montreal, Canada; Thanked: 639 times; GMAT Score:780

by Stacey Koprince » Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:36 am

Can you please look into the related issue at the below thread....here for kicking out D....OG says we need to have "that" after "and"....is it because the first part there is

that <verb>

second part does not start with <verb> after "and"

https://www.beatthegmat.com/uncontrolled ... tml#169856

Confused. Followed the link. The sentence does not contain the word "and" anywhere. Can you clarify / double-check the link?

goelmohit2002: Legendary Member; Posts: 1799; Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:03 amFollowed by: 2 members; Thanked: 36 times

by goelmohit2002 » Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:01 am

Stacey Koprince wrote:
Can you please look into the related issue at the below thread....here for kicking out D....OG says we need to have "that" after "and"....is it because the first part there is

that <verb>

second part does not start with <verb> after "and"

https://www.beatthegmat.com/uncontrolled ... tml#169856

Confused. Followed the link. The sentence does not contain the word "and" anywhere. Can you clarify / double-check the link?

Hi Stacey,

Can you please see the option D of the above link....there the word and is there....

Thanks

goelmohit2002: Legendary Member; Posts: 1799; Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:03 amFollowed by: 2 members; Thanked: 36 times

by goelmohit2002 » Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:15 am

Stacey Koprince wrote:
a) GMAT students have found that X and that Y.( No comma there)
b) GMAT students have found that X, and that Y. ( Comma there)

Where both X and Y are two independent clauses connected by conjunction "and"
Example (b) does NOT show two independent clauses connected by the conjunction "and." "that Y" is not an independent clause - remember you have to include everything after the word "and."

GMAT students have found that the sky is blue and that grass is green.

Independent clause: GMAT students have found that the sky is blue
Dependent clause: that grass is green

So you would NOT use a comma before the "and" in this setup.

If you had:
GMAT students have found that the sky is blue, and LSAT students have found that the grass is green.

Now, you have two independent clauses - so you'd use the comma.

Awesome Stacey !!! Many thanks for clearing this "that" parallelism issue that used to haunt for so long !!!

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