Need urgent advice...

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Need urgent advice...

by jimmiejaz » Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:40 am
I am Rajiv Garg, a GMAT aspirant. I gave my gmat on 28th July '08 and scored 620. q- 46, va - 26. I decided to give another shot and so have booked a slot for 10th November. After my first attempt at GMAT, i fully knew my weaknesses. DS in quant and RC, CR in Verbal. I started giving more attention to these particular areas. I think i have improved in RC, CR as my accuracy has gone up. But in DS, i still lag behind. I dont know what to do to improve accuracy in DS. Also, i gave 1st MGMAT CAT after resetting and i had severe time mis management issues. I had around 10 questions left when only 5 minutes left. So, i paused the clock and then completed all the questions. I know i cheated myself but please help me in devising a strategy as i am getting more and more tensed. The d date is approaching and am losing confidence. I dont want the second attempt to be a failure too. How shall i attack the questions which i have already spent 2 minutes? IF its a P.S, i think that if i have spend 2 mins let me spend some more time n solve it. In this way, i lose track of the whole section.

Also, i thought about registering for the self study course provided by MGMAT. Please suggest me.

Regards
Rajiv
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by sumidi » Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:08 am
Hi Rajiv,

You appear to be having a similar problem to mine. Timing.

When you mentioned about your timing issues with Manhattan GMAT, was it the Maths portion or the verbal? If it is the Maths portion then I would say you shouldn't have too much of a problem as their questions are ridiculously time consuming. ( I won't say hard, just take a lot longer to understand and solve.)

If you have timing issues in verbal then you must not be timing yourself when you do verbal questions in the OG.

The best indicator though is Gprep software from mba.com Get the software and do one practice run and analyze how your time management. You might find that you actually finish the exam on time.

Good Luck.

Sumi

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by jimmiejaz » Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:55 am
Hi

Yes, the problem with me is in the Maths section. i took a test last friday and found that i am struggling again in Quant section even though i was pretty relaxed in Verbal and completed it comfortably. I scored a 670 in that test. qa - 47, verbal - 34
I wanted to do the gmat prep at the last as they are the true indicators of the actual GMAT. Anyways, i will do it as you say if that is the case.

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by lunarpower » Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:14 am
first: NEVER, EVER, EVER PAUSE THE CLOCK. you had it right: you are doing yourself a disservice by doing so. since you are apparently well aware of this fact, don't do it.

now that we've gotten that out of the way...

* you should follow the following PROBLEM SOLVING HIERARCHY for ALL quant problems.
in order for you to proceed through the quant section without wasting excessive time (and therefore not finishing), you MUST stick to the following hierarchy - and, most importantly, you MUST MOVE ON TO THE NEXT STEP AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE IF YOU DON'T FIND A METHOD THAT WORKS FOR THE CURRENT STEP.
here's the hierarchy. it works slightly differently for problem solving than for data sufficiency, with most of the differences having to do with "plugging in numbers":


PROBLEM SOLVING:

1. can i find a "textbook method" to solve the problem?
- i.e., can i find an 'opener' that might be in an answer key, etc.?
IF NOT,
2. can i "plug in numbers" (for equation or word problems), or just LIST things (for counting or probability problems)?
- note that there are two kinds of "plugging in numbers" for problem solving:
(a) plugging in YOUR OWN numbers, and working through the problem in the normal direction with your numbers instead of variables (VIC style problems),
(b) plugging in the ANSWER CHOICES and working the problem backwards (used if the answer choices are numbers and there's a decently easy path "backwards" through the problem).
IF NOT,
3. can i estimate, or perform process of elimination in any other way?
- if the answer choices are NUMBERS and there's a decent spread - i.e., not all of the answer choices are extremely close together - then you may be able to eliminate answers based on estimation. this goes especially for geometry problems, which have DIAGRAMS and are therefore easier to estimate, but it goes for all sorts of other problems as well.
IF NOT,
4. guess
- if you get to this point, DO NOT DELIBERATE - just guess. remember that any random guess is as good as any other random guess. if you're an extreme "deliberator", then, as weird as it may sound, you may want to have an actual method for random guessing. this could be as simple as "pick the first one of the remaining choices", but anything you can do to prevent staring at the problem is good.


DATA SUFFICIENCY:

1. can i find a "textbook method" to solve the problem?
- i.e., can i find an 'opener' that might be in an answer key, etc.?
IF NOT,
2. can i "plug in numbers"?
- note that NUMBER PLUGGING WORKS DIFFERENTLY FOR DATA SUFFICIENCY. with problem solving, all you have to do is plug in one set of numbers (VICs) or plug in one answer choice at a time (working backwards). with data sufficiency, though, you have to plug in MULTIPLE numbers or sets of numbers, with the goal being to TRY FOR 'INSUFFICIENT'.
in other words, you should try multiple values, with your goal being to get both a 'yes' and a 'no' (if it's a yes/no question) or two different values (if it's a value question).
if it's a number properties problem, you should make sure that you figure out the TYPES of numbers being tested, and plug in accordingly. for instance, if the problem involves absolute values, then it's likely that you'll have to plug in both positive and negative numbers.
IF NOT,
3. can i use the "easy statement", or perform process of elimination in any other way?
- always use the "easy statement" first, if there is one. this is essential for time management: you want to eliminate as many answers early as possible, in case time runs short.
ironically, the hardest problems commonly have one very "easy" statement out of the two (such as a statement that doesn't contain one of the relevant variables).
IF NOT,
4. guess
- if you get to this point, DO NOT DELIBERATE - just guess. remember that any random guess is as good as any other random guess. if you're an extreme "deliberator", then, as weird as it may sound, you may want to have an actual method for random guessing. this could be as simple as "pick the first one of the remaining choices", but anything you can do to prevent staring at the problem is good.

again, when you move through the above hierarchy, you need to progress EFFICIENTLY through the different steps. in other words, if one of the steps isn't working for you, you should more or less IMMEDIATELY move on to the next step. i like to follow a "10 second rule": if you stare at a problem for 10 seconds without doing anything, then it's time to move on to the next step of the hierarchy.
this may be difficult to implement at first, especially if you're a "deliberator" by nature, but it's ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL for your success on this exam. you will not be able to finish the quant section on time if you aren't adaptable and don't move quickly from one method of problem solving to another.

--

- if you are wasting time DELIBERATING between two or three final choices, YOU MUST LEARN TO STOP DELIBERATING. you should get into a mental state where you can just make a decision, even if that decision is random.
if you're an extreme "deliberator" type - common in business school - then you may even want to figure out a systematic way to make random guesses! for instance, you might plan to always guess on the first remaining choice (say, (b) if you're down to (b) and (e)). whatever it takes so that you NEVER feel like staring at a problem.

--

if you adopt this sort of STRICT hierarchical mentality, you will almost certainly do much better on the quant section. it's a difficult thing at first, because it's almost certainly alien to your current manner of thinking, but it will make a HUGE difference.
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

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by jimmiejaz » Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:30 am
lunarpower wrote:first: NEVER, EVER, EVER PAUSE THE CLOCK. you had it right: you are doing yourself a disservice by doing so. since you are apparently well aware of this fact, don't do it.

now that we've gotten that out of the way...

* you should follow the following PROBLEM SOLVING HIERARCHY for ALL quant problems.
in order for you to proceed through the quant section without wasting excessive time (and therefore not finishing), you MUST stick to the following hierarchy - and, most importantly, you MUST MOVE ON TO THE NEXT STEP AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE IF YOU DON'T FIND A METHOD THAT WORKS FOR THE CURRENT STEP.
here's the hierarchy. it works slightly differently for problem solving than for data sufficiency, with most of the differences having to do with "plugging in numbers":


PROBLEM SOLVING:

1. can i find a "textbook method" to solve the problem?
- i.e., can i find an 'opener' that might be in an answer key, etc.?
IF NOT,
2. can i "plug in numbers" (for equation or word problems), or just LIST things (for counting or probability problems)?
- note that there are two kinds of "plugging in numbers" for problem solving:
(a) plugging in YOUR OWN numbers, and working through the problem in the normal direction with your numbers instead of variables (VIC style problems),
(b) plugging in the ANSWER CHOICES and working the problem backwards (used if the answer choices are numbers and there's a decently easy path "backwards" through the problem).
IF NOT,
3. can i estimate, or perform process of elimination in any other way?
- if the answer choices are NUMBERS and there's a decent spread - i.e., not all of the answer choices are extremely close together - then you may be able to eliminate answers based on estimation. this goes especially for geometry problems, which have DIAGRAMS and are therefore easier to estimate, but it goes for all sorts of other problems as well.
IF NOT,
4. guess
- if you get to this point, DO NOT DELIBERATE - just guess. remember that any random guess is as good as any other random guess. if you're an extreme "deliberator", then, as weird as it may sound, you may want to have an actual method for random guessing. this could be as simple as "pick the first one of the remaining choices", but anything you can do to prevent staring at the problem is good.


DATA SUFFICIENCY:

1. can i find a "textbook method" to solve the problem?
- i.e., can i find an 'opener' that might be in an answer key, etc.?
IF NOT,
2. can i "plug in numbers"?
- note that NUMBER PLUGGING WORKS DIFFERENTLY FOR DATA SUFFICIENCY. with problem solving, all you have to do is plug in one set of numbers (VICs) or plug in one answer choice at a time (working backwards). with data sufficiency, though, you have to plug in MULTIPLE numbers or sets of numbers, with the goal being to TRY FOR 'INSUFFICIENT'.
in other words, you should try multiple values, with your goal being to get both a 'yes' and a 'no' (if it's a yes/no question) or two different values (if it's a value question).
if it's a number properties problem, you should make sure that you figure out the TYPES of numbers being tested, and plug in accordingly. for instance, if the problem involves absolute values, then it's likely that you'll have to plug in both positive and negative numbers.
IF NOT,
3. can i use the "easy statement", or perform process of elimination in any other way?
- always use the "easy statement" first, if there is one. this is essential for time management: you want to eliminate as many answers early as possible, in case time runs short.
ironically, the hardest problems commonly have one very "easy" statement out of the two (such as a statement that doesn't contain one of the relevant variables).
IF NOT,
4. guess
- if you get to this point, DO NOT DELIBERATE - just guess. remember that any random guess is as good as any other random guess. if you're an extreme "deliberator", then, as weird as it may sound, you may want to have an actual method for random guessing. this could be as simple as "pick the first one of the remaining choices", but anything you can do to prevent staring at the problem is good.

again, when you move through the above hierarchy, you need to progress EFFICIENTLY through the different steps. in other words, if one of the steps isn't working for you, you should more or less IMMEDIATELY move on to the next step. i like to follow a "10 second rule": if you stare at a problem for 10 seconds without doing anything, then it's time to move on to the next step of the hierarchy.
this may be difficult to implement at first, especially if you're a "deliberator" by nature, but it's ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL for your success on this exam. you will not be able to finish the quant section on time if you aren't adaptable and don't move quickly from one method of problem solving to another.

--

- if you are wasting time DELIBERATING between two or three final choices, YOU MUST LEARN TO STOP DELIBERATING. you should get into a mental state where you can just make a decision, even if that decision is random.
if you're an extreme "deliberator" type - common in business school - then you may even want to figure out a systematic way to make random guesses! for instance, you might plan to always guess on the first remaining choice (say, (b) if you're down to (b) and (e)). whatever it takes so that you NEVER feel like staring at a problem.

--

if you adopt this sort of STRICT hierarchical mentality, you will almost certainly do much better on the quant section. it's a difficult thing at first, because it's almost certainly alien to your current manner of thinking, but it will make a HUGE difference.
first of all, thanks a lot Ron for taking out time to reply to my post. I have identified a certain issue with me. If say i have spent 1 minute and am going with ur heirarchy, in the middle if i get hold of the textbook approach, how shall i go with the problem then? shall i still follow the heirarchy or shall start the textbook approach. It can happen tht i can get the ans right by implementing the text book approach though wasting imp time. Whats your opinion on this?

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query...

by jimmiejaz » Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:47 am
Thanks a lot ron for your suggestions. I will try to inculcate the approach mentioned by you.
I have one more query. As i have booked the gmat date for 10 Nov, should i reschedule it? Because last time also, i faced similar time management issues. This time i want to be pretty sure and comfortable in quant as i always considered quant as my strength. I feel miserable when i am not able to finish qa section in time.
Please suggest.

Rajiv

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by marouan » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:24 am
hi all,
Yeah same problem for me too,
3 min/ each Quant question !!!!

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Re: query...

by lunarpower » Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:51 pm
jimmiejaz wrote:Thanks a lot ron for your suggestions. I will try to inculcate the approach mentioned by you.
I have one more query. As i have booked the gmat date for 10 Nov, should i reschedule it? Because last time also, i faced similar time management issues. This time i want to be pretty sure and comfortable in quant as i always considered quant as my strength. I feel miserable when i am not able to finish qa section in time.
Please suggest.

Rajiv
depends entirely on your ability to absorb and implement new habits.
if you are a creature of routine who will find it difficult to implement a new paradigm of time management - especially after being "locked in" to your old, time-inefficient paradigm for so long - then you may need the extra time. on the other hand, if you're used to being flexible and you generally have little trouble adopting new techniques, methods, and habits, then you may be able to make the change by the 10th of november.
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

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by Stacey Koprince » Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:42 am
I received a PM asking me to comment. Ron gives great advice, above. Let me add a couple of things.

You are forbidden from using the pause button ever again. Seriously. All you're doing is developing bad habits. Force yourself to guess. :)

If, by the one minute mark on quant, you don't have a "textbook" method or a "plug in" method available, you need to move to educated guessing, pick something, and keep going. Educated guessing = crossing off wrong answers. It takes some time to figure out how to cross off wrong answers, so you need that second minute just to make the educated guess.

Also, think about this:
- If you're at (or past) the one minute mark and you haven't come up with a "textbook" or "plug in" method yet, then it's highly unlikely that you are both going to figure that out and have time to do all of the work in the second minute.
- If you're at (or past) the one minute mark and you think that you just suddenly came up with the textbook or plug in method... if it takes you more than a minute, then there's a pretty good chance that you didn't actually happen upon the right method. The whole point is that you're already struggling, right?

Remember that if you go to 3 min on a problem, you're almost guaranteeing yourself at least one problem wrong elsewhere on the test, so at best, you're at 50/50, assuming you get the 3-min one right. And if you have to go to 3 min on a problem, the chances aren't that good that you'll get that problem right.

And if you go to 4 min on a problem, you're pretty much guaranteeing yourself at least two problems wrong elsewhere. Think about how this will play out in practice: will you just keep working until you realize that, oops, you're two minutes short and can't do that last problem? No. You'll realize you're short on time and you'll think,"Okay, I can do these two problems in one minute each to make up for that two-min deficit." And now you've just greatly increased the odds that you'll get both of those problems wrong!

In some recent post elsewhere, I advised someone to think about this test as a tennis match. You're going to win some points, but you're also going to lose some points. If you try to fight to the death on every point, you'll tire yourself out so much that you'll lose the match. If you say "good shot" and move on when your opponent plays a good point (ie, when the test gives you something that you can't figure out), you still have a chance to win the match.

ETA: I forgot two other things. One: you won't be able to improve your quant score much if you don't fix the timing issue, and if you have severe timing issues during the test, your score could actually go down. So be very careful about this - you have to fix this. Two: you asked about our self-study program. The self-study program ideally takes about 8-10 weeks to complete. You're taking the test in 2 weeks, so I don't know that I would recommend you start the self-study program at this point. If you postpone, then you may want to look into it.
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need inputs

by jimmiejaz » Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:56 am
Hi

I gave GMATPREP 1 and scored 740. breakup is qa-48, va-44.
I still had some issues in quant section and had to rush through last 3 problems. I randomly guessed last 3 problems and got 1 right and 2 wrong.
In total i got 13 wrong in maths and 10 wrong in english. Despite of scoring pretty good, i am a bit sceptical of my score. Partly because before this test, i always scored in the range of 670 in mgmat prep. So, i doubt if this is a one off case or are the mgmats tougher than gmat prep tests?
Please suggest.

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inputs

by jimmiejaz » Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:32 am
i would like to add that i got around 15 questions in the 700-800 level in each of the mgmat prep test and some of them were very lengthy.and i always got stuck in one of the problems and so faced issues completing the section. Yesterday, giving gmatprep1, though i didn't manage time as i should in maths section, the timing was not that bad as it is giving mgmat tests.I am planning to give a mgmat test again today.
Please give your valuable suggestions as am i doing fine or am it is just a coincidence that i scored good in a GMATPREP1.

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by Stacey Koprince » Fri Oct 31, 2008 8:51 am
These tests aren't as precise as most people think they are. The standard deviation on the official test is about 30 points and the SD on our test is about 50 points. So I would guess that you're pretty solidly in the high-600 to low-700 range on the test right now. Possibly better, but I like to be conservative in making such estimates.

Couple of things:
- GMATPrep is the most accurate indicator of performance on the official test
- People who score higher on quant often report that our quant section feels harder than the real test; this is because our test doesn't include experimental questions, so you don't get any "easy (for you)" test questions as little mental breaks (and timesavers) throughout the section
- Are you taking all of your practice tests under official testing conditions? (essays, 10 min break, quant, 10 min break, verbal) If not, score fluctuations could be a result of that (eg, when people don't do the essays, their scores often improve)

Finally, be really careful about your tendency to take too much time and have to guess at the end in quant. If this happens on only one or two questions, it won't hurt you too much, but on the real test, our bad habits tend to get magnified. It's not unusual to hear about someone who ran out of time with only 2 or 3 to go on practice tests but ran out of time with 5 or 7 to go on the real test. The worst thing for your score is to get a string of questions wrong in a row - the "penalty" actually magnifies when the questions are in a row.
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by lunarpower » Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:32 pm
stacey dropped some wisdom:
Stacey Koprince wrote:Finally, be really careful about your tendency to take too much time and have to guess at the end in quant. If this happens on only one or two questions, it won't hurt you too much, but on the real test, our bad habits tend to get magnified. It's not unusual to hear about someone who ran out of time with only 2 or 3 to go on practice tests but ran out of time with 5 or 7 to go on the real test. The worst thing for your score is to get a string of questions wrong in a row - the "penalty" actually magnifies when the questions are in a row.
oh yes.
you need to be absolutely RELIGIOUS about time management. this cannot possibly be overstated.
whatever habits you build on the practice tests will come out in the wash when you take the real test.

remember to go through the following hierarchy when you're having trouble solving problems:
1. "textbook" method
2. plug in numbers or answer choices (equations, word problems) / make exhaustive lists (counting, probability)
3. estimate
4. process of elimination
5. random guess
if you're not having success at each step, then move very quickly to the next step. do not deliberate, and do not dwell at points where you don't know what to do.

good luck.
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

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by jimmiejaz » Sat Nov 01, 2008 6:04 am
thanks a lot ron and stacey for your valuable suggstions. i will surely keep this in mind and will religiously follow time management.
Your suggestions are very motivating.
Thanks a ton. Will keep you guys posted about my latest prep scores.

Rajiv

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by jimmiejaz » Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:01 am
Hi All,

I gave MGMAT CAT and scored 710. qa - 49, va - 38. I did some silly mistakes towards the end of the english section and that skewed my score. Overall i was satisfied. But, faced the same issue again for last 3 questions in quant. I couldnt find time for them. So guesses randomly got 1 right and 1 wrong and the last one was not accepted by the computer. So, it was a no attempt. what else shall i do to prevent this problem from recurring? i was pretty much on time till the last 10 questions in quant and then spent more time on a question. I got it right but couldnt finish the section. :(

All, please suggest/comment on my performance. This time i want to cross the 700 barrier.
Rajiv