Prepositional modifiers

This topic has expert replies
Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
Posts: 176
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:32 am
Thanked: 5 times

Prepositional modifiers

by vishal.pathak » Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:56 am
Early medieval monasteries, while clearly less accessible to outsiders, often served as repositories for texts, like modem libraries.

Don't the propositional modifiers modify the noun before them. If they do then, doesn't it appear that 'like modem libraries' is modifying 'texts'. Please help

Regards,
Vishal
Source: — Sentence Correction |

Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
Posts: 138
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:07 am
Thanked: 19 times
Followed by:3 members

by GmatVerbal » Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:30 pm
Prepositional phrases can act as a adjectival modifiers in which case they modify nouns.
They can also modify verbs in which case they are adverbial. So it depends on the phrase whether its modifying noun or not.

follow the link "https://www.beatthegmat.com/prepositiona ... 91955.html" for some excellent explanations by "GMATGuruNY" for similar questions:

https://www.beatthegmat.com/prepositiona ... 91955.html

The following is a general link on prepositional modifiers:

https://www.chompchomp.com/terms/prepositionalphrase.htm

Apart from that the following points are useful:

1. noun modifiers( adjectival) normally should be close the noun they modify.
2. verb modifiers( adverbial) can modify faraway verb.
3. comma indicates non-essential modifier.
4. some prepositions are marginal prepositions. They look like participles but they are not.

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/internet-grammar/preps/xprep2.htm








vishal.pathak wrote:Early medieval monasteries, while clearly less accessible to outsiders, often served as repositories for texts, like modem libraries.

Don't the propositional modifiers modify the noun before them. If they do then, doesn't it appear that 'like modem libraries' is modifying 'texts'. Please help

Regards,
Vishal

GMAT/MBA Expert

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 768
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2011 4:18 pm
Location: Berkeley, CA
Thanked: 387 times
Followed by:140 members

by Mike@Magoosh » Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:33 pm
Yes, modifiers target the closest noun, the noun immediately before or after them. That current sentence,

"Early medieval monasteries, while clearly less accessible to outsiders, often served as repositories for texts, like modem libraries."

is problematic. As it stands, the last phrase compares "texts" to "modern libraries". You are perfectly right. We want to compare medieval monasteries to modern libraries.

For example, I would rewrite the sentence as:

"Early medieval monasteries, while clearly less accessible to outsiders, often served as repositories for texts, as do modem libraries."

Notice that unlike a prepositional modifying, a phrase that begins with "as do" refers back the verb of the sentence, not the nearest noun. It properly puts "modern libraries" as another subject of the verb "served", which is the very point of the comparison: showing that both monasteries and libraries serve as book repositories.

I hope that helps. Let me know if you have any questions.

Mike :-)
Magoosh GMAT Instructor
https://gmat.magoosh.com/

Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
Posts: 176
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:32 am
Thanked: 5 times

by vishal.pathak » Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:26 pm
mikemcgarry wrote:Yes, modifiers target the closest noun, the noun immediately before or after them. That current sentence,

"Early medieval monasteries, while clearly less accessible to outsiders, often served as repositories for texts, like modem libraries."

is problematic. As it stands, the last phrase compares "texts" to "modern libraries". You are perfectly right. We want to compare medieval monasteries to modern libraries.

For example, I would rewrite the sentence as:

"Early medieval monasteries, while clearly less accessible to outsiders, often served as repositories for texts, as do modem libraries."

Notice that unlike a prepositional modifying, a phrase that begins with "as do" refers back the verb of the sentence, not the nearest noun. It properly puts "modern libraries" as another subject of the verb "served", which is the very point of the comparison: showing that both monasteries and libraries serve as book repositories.

I hope that helps. Let me know if you have any questions.

Mike :-)
Hi Mike,

Thanks for the reply but Mitch says that the statement is correct. Check this out

https://www.beatthegmat.com/kaplan-800-m ... 73252.html

Regards,
Vishal

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 641
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:07 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Thanked: 162 times
Followed by:45 members
GMAT Score:760

by Jim@Grockit » Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:51 am
vishal.pathak wrote:Early medieval monasteries, while clearly less accessible to outsiders, often served as repositories for texts, like modem libraries.

Don't the propositional modifiers modify the noun before them. If they do then, doesn't it appear that 'like modem libraries' is modifying 'texts'. Please help

Regards,
Vishal
Prepositional modifiers modify the noun before (except when they don't -- "with" in particular can be used absolutely, even though the GMAT doesn't like it), but if "like modern libraries" were modifying "texts", it could be written without the comma. If nothing else, to make it clear that we wanted the texts to be like modern libraries, we would elevate it to a relative clause "texts THAT ARE like modern libraries."

Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
Posts: 138
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:07 am
Thanked: 19 times
Followed by:3 members

by GmatVerbal » Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:33 pm
Vishal,

This is the quote what Mitch has said in the post you refered:

"A modifier should be as close as possible to what it's modifying, but it need not be adjacent to what it modifies. Regardless, the SC above does not offer an answer choice that is free of errors and places like modern libraries next to early medieval monasteries. In the OA, since there is no noun other than medieval libraries that could be like modern libraries, the comparison is clear."

What can you infer from this?

GMAT/MBA Expert

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 768
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2011 4:18 pm
Location: Berkeley, CA
Thanked: 387 times
Followed by:140 members

by Mike@Magoosh » Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:08 pm
Vishal,

When you post SC questions without answer choices, that opens up a panoply of possible directions for corrections. Now that I see the question with all five answer choices, A is clearly the correct answer. Again, it's not how I personally would write the information, but that's not what SC is about: it's about finding the best of the five answer choices given. That's why it's crucial to post the answer choices when you post the question. Does that make sense?

Mike :-)
Magoosh GMAT Instructor
https://gmat.magoosh.com/

Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
Posts: 176
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:32 am
Thanked: 5 times

by vishal.pathak » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:24 pm
mikemcgarry wrote:Vishal,

When you post SC questions without answer choices, that opens up a panoply of possible directions for corrections. Now that I see the question with all five answer choices, A is clearly the correct answer. Again, it's not how I personally would write the information, but that's not what SC is about: it's about finding the best of the five answer choices given. That's why it's crucial to post the answer choices when you post the question. Does that make sense?

Mike :-)
It definitely does, Mike. I could clearly understand the question and Mitch's explanation for it but I am interested in the concept offered by the SC. I singled out this choice so that I could have get some views on the construction of this SC, specifically the position of the prepositional modifier. It is important for me to understand this because, well it does not even matter whether I answer the SC correctly or not but it matters that I put the right concepts in my brain

@GmatVerbal: I get Mitch's argument here but my question really is, can prepositional modifiers modify things which are very far from its place. Its not important to understand the SC, i believe, but it is important to get its import. Hope you understand and help me clarify my doubt
Regards,
Vishal

Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
Posts: 176
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:32 am
Thanked: 5 times

by vishal.pathak » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:30 pm
Jim@Grockit wrote:
vishal.pathak wrote:Early medieval monasteries, while clearly less accessible to outsiders, often served as repositories for texts, like modem libraries.

Don't the propositional modifiers modify the noun before them. If they do then, doesn't it appear that 'like modem libraries' is modifying 'texts'. Please help

Regards,
Vishal
Prepositional modifiers modify the noun before (except when they don't -- "with" in particular can be used absolutely, even though the GMAT doesn't like it), but if "like modern libraries" were modifying "texts", it could be written without the comma. If nothing else, to make it clear that we wanted the texts to be like modern libraries, we would elevate it to a relative clause "texts THAT ARE like modern libraries."
Hi Jim,

I understand that there are better ways of writing this sentence but my doubt really is, if we find such an option in the actual test then should we consider it as right or wrong. If picking this answer will depend on the correctness of other answer choices then, how huge is this error. I mean, I have read that pronoun ambiguity should not be the basis of rejection. So what kind of errors should be there in other choices so that this one becomes relatively correct.

More important question really is , how do we tune ourselves to gauge the magnitude of relative error

Regards,
Vishal

Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
Posts: 138
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:07 am
Thanked: 19 times
Followed by:3 members

by GmatVerbal » Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:02 pm
I. The issue is misquoting the experts answers,and taking answers out of context, may be because not paying enough attention/time?

Mitch comments( from the link you provided):

"A modifier should be as close as possible to what it's modifying, but it need not be adjacent to what it modifies. Regardless, the SC above does not offer an answer choice that is free of errors and places like modern libraries next to early medieval monasteries. In the OA, since there is no noun other than medieval libraries that could be like modern libraries, the comparison is clear."

Read the bold text and you understand that it is consistent with what Mike has stated.
It also has all you were looking for
1. How good is the sentence 2. Why is it still the answer.

II. You say, you would like to know correctness of the statement alone and not looking at it as an SC, yet you would like to compare the experts answers given in two different contexts. Doesn't sound logical to me.


III. If your objective is learning correct English and really not picking up right answer, there are language forums which serve that purpose. GMAT is all about picking the best choice.


vishal.pathak wrote:
mikemcgarry wrote:Vishal,

When you post SC questions without answer choices, that opens up a panoply of possible directions for corrections. Now that I see the question with all five answer choices, A is clearly the correct answer. Again, it's not how I personally would write the information, but that's not what SC is about: it's about finding the best of the five answer choices given. That's why it's crucial to post the answer choices when you post the question. Does that make sense?

Mike :-)
It definitely does, Mike. I could clearly understand the question and Mitch's explanation for it but I am interested in the concept offered by the SC. I singled out this choice so that I could have get some views on the construction of this SC, specifically the position of the prepositional modifier. It is important for me to understand this because, well it does not even matter whether I answer the SC correctly or not but it matters that I put the right concepts in my brain

@GmatVerbal: I get Mitch's argument here but my question really is, can prepositional modifiers modify things which are very far from its place. Its not important to understand the SC, i believe, but it is important to get its import. Hope you understand and help me clarify my doubt
Regards,
Vishal

Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
Posts: 176
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:32 am
Thanked: 5 times

by vishal.pathak » Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:44 am
GmatVerbal wrote:I. The issue is misquoting the experts answers,and taking answers out of context, may be because not paying enough attention/time?

Mitch comments( from the link you provided):

"A modifier should be as close as possible to what it's modifying, but it need not be adjacent to what it modifies. Regardless, the SC above does not offer an answer choice that is free of errors and places like modern libraries next to early medieval monasteries. In the OA, since there is no noun other than medieval libraries that could be like modern libraries, the comparison is clear."

Read the bold text and you understand that it is consistent with what Mike has stated.
It also has all you were looking for
1. How good is the sentence 2. Why is it still the answer.

II. You say, you would like to know correctness of the statement alone and not looking at it as an SC, yet you would like to compare the experts answers given in two different contexts. Doesn't sound logical to me.


III. If your objective is learning correct English and really not picking up right answer, there are language forums which serve that purpose. GMAT is all about picking the best choice.


vishal.pathak wrote:
mikemcgarry wrote:Vishal,

When you post SC questions without answer choices, that opens up a panoply of possible directions for corrections. Now that I see the question with all five answer choices, A is clearly the correct answer. Again, it's not how I personally would write the information, but that's not what SC is about: it's about finding the best of the five answer choices given. That's why it's crucial to post the answer choices when you post the question. Does that make sense?

Mike :-)
It definitely does, Mike. I could clearly understand the question and Mitch's explanation for it but I am interested in the concept offered by the SC. I singled out this choice so that I could have get some views on the construction of this SC, specifically the position of the prepositional modifier. It is important for me to understand this because, well it does not even matter whether I answer the SC correctly or not but it matters that I put the right concepts in my brain

@GmatVerbal: I get Mitch's argument here but my question really is, can prepositional modifiers modify things which are very far from its place. Its not important to understand the SC, i believe, but it is important to get its import. Hope you understand and help me clarify my doubt
Regards,
Vishal
Hmm interesting.

I. Misquoting facts: I have put the link to the post where the expert has answered. One has to be really bad at basic logic to say that I misquoted fact. The link to the post was there for people to READ the expert's comments and then judge what he has said. Gat your facts right on this

II. What 2 different contexts. There is 1 post and there is one context. Anyways, I dont even want to know what you were thinking when you wrote that. It hardly makes any difference to my GMAT preparations so ugly words like those should better be ignored

III. If you are not capable enough to understand that good English holds the key to success in GMAT SC then I don't even what to waste my time to explain you it's importance.

PS: You are a member of the forum. Please don't try to become an administrator

Regards,
Vishal

User avatar
Site Admin
Posts: 2567
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:05 am
Thanked: 712 times
Followed by:550 members
GMAT Score:770

by DanaJ » Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:27 am
I think there's a little bit of a miscommunication issue here, but keep calm guys! I know SC can raise anyone's blood pressure (it sure did that for me), but let's relax :)

User avatar
Legendary Member
Posts: 641
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:15 am
Thanked: 149 times
Followed by:32 members
GMAT Score:760

by avik.ch » Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:06 am
vishal.pathak wrote:
Hmm interesting.

I. Misquoting facts: I have put the link to the post where the expert has answered. One has to be really bad at basic logic to say that I misquoted fact. The link to the post was there for people to READ the expert's comments and then judge what he has said. Gat your facts right on this

II. What 2 different contexts. There is 1 post and there is one context. Anyways, I dont even want to know what you were thinking when you wrote that. It hardly makes any difference to my GMAT preparations so ugly words like those should better be ignored

III. If you are not capable enough to understand that good English holds the key to success in GMAT SC then I don't even what to waste my time to explain you it's importance.

PS: You are a member of the forum. Please don't try to become an administrator


Regards,
Vishal


I will start with prepostional modifier and by the end of this post I think your doubt will be cleared.

Prepositional modifier can act as a noun modifier aka adjective and as a verb modifier aka adverb. This is dependent on the placement and on the logical meaning of the sentence.

I killed Joe in 1988. Here the prepositional phrase "in 1988" is a adverb of time and hence an adverb modifier.
The school board gave a rise to the teachers. - "to the teachers" is a prepositional phrase acting as an adverb of reception.
He acted like an expert - like an expert is an adverb of manner.

Apart from a adverb, preposition can also act as an noun modifier - This is the only point of discussion here. It is only in this case where the prepositional modifier is placed close to the noun it modifies and this is not the case when it is verb modifier.

I ate the brownie which was in the box. -- "which was in the box" is a relative clause, and GMAT do not use this construction as this is wordy. The better way to write this is to remove "which was" - this will be now : I ate the brownie in the box. - here "in the box" is acting as an adjective.
The refrigerator in the centre of the room..............---- If you want to test whether the prepositional phrase is acting as an adjective or an adverb - apply which/relative pronoun test.

The refrigerator which is in the centre of the room.... - yes " in the room " is an adjective and not an adverb of place.

Now refer the sentence above : I killed Joe in 1988 - you may argue here that "in 1988" is a adjective phrase but apply the test here to know whether it is a adverb or a adjective. I killed joe which is in 1988. -- illogical.

But if there is any ambiguity, you can consider this sentence as wrong in GMAT. Consider this :

I wrote a book in the table. - what is "in the table" modifying, it can be both adverb of place or adjective.

Please refer OG-12, # 38. Please refer Mitch explanation, as he have used this same concept to solved this problem : https://www.beatthegmat.com/please-help- ... 81781.html

Now coming to your problem :

Early medieval monasteries, while clearly less accessible to outsiders, often served as repositories for texts, like modem libraries.

Here : "Like" is also a preposition.

I acted like X. - Like X is an adverb here and acted is an Intransitive verb.

But I dont understand how you are drawing an analogy for prepositional phrase when it is acting as an verb modifier to noun modifier. Mitch have explained this from comparison point of view - Yes regarding prepositional modifier, as "like X" generally act as an adverb modifier, it doesnt mater where you place it as long as there is a clear and unambigious comparison. Lets consider the example I stated above :

I acted in the XXXXX located in YYYY like AA. - here there are two adverb phrase : " in the XXXXX located in YYYY" and "like AAA" -- it doesnt mater where you locate like AA - as long as there is a clear comparison or reference. This close placement is valid for noun modifier and not for verb modifier. Here its an verb modifier. Your are correct that :

I acted like AA in the XXXXX located in YYYY. - is better than - I acted in the XXXXX located in YYYY like AA. But I would say better and not correct/incorrect.

Here the comma is not making any difference - as non restrictive adverb clause are derived from the restrictive adverb clause. Consider this :

I killed joe in 1988. Converting it into Non restrictive one : In 1988, I killed joe. So in case of adverb clause, there is no difference with and without comma. But this is only applicable for all types of verbs ( linking, be, transitive) but not for intransitive.

here :
Early medieval monasteries - subject
while clearly less accessible to outsiders - adjective modifying the subject
often served as repositories for texts - main clause
like modem libraries - non restrictive adverb.

P.S : I am too a member of this forum and not an expert. I would second GmatVerbal's view that we have to choose the best out of the five. In this question all except this are blatantly wrong.

Hope this helps !!

• Page 1 of 1