800score.com overlapping set problem

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800score.com overlapping set problem

by HPengineer » Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:05 pm
In a 100 unit dormitory building, 75 dorm rooms have at least one DVD player, 80 have at least one cell phone and 55 have at least one MP3 player. Every dorm has at least one of these three devices. If x and y are respectively the greatest and lowest possible number of dorms that have all three of these devices then x-y is:

A.65
B.) 55
C.) 45
D.) 10
E.) 0


I having trouble setting up a table to approach this... so i drew venn diagram instead.. i get close to the answer but not quite...
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by limestone » Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:15 pm
Hi,
Let's call:
Dorm rooms that have DVD : D
Dorm rooms that have MP3: M
Dorm rooms that have Cell: C

I didn't know which is the most convenient approach to this problem. This is just what I think:

We have three circles D, M, C which value at 75, 55, and 80 respectively. The total sum is 100. Thus there is no way these circles cannot overlap each other.

To find the max value of triple overlapped area, find the max value of double overlapped area first, then plug the third circle to it as much as possible.

Overlap between:
D and M :(75+55) - 100 = 30
D and C: (75+80) - 100 = 55
M and C: (55+80) - 100 = 35

Hey look and D and C, 55 is exactly the value of circle M. Plug circle M perfectly into the overlapped zone between D and C, we got maximum value of triple overlapped area: 55


To find the minimum, try the same, and we got D and M have the minimum overlapped area : 30
Thus the area that is NOT overlapped: 100 - 30 = 70. Try to distribute as much as possible the last circle's area to this not-overlapped-between-D-and-M area to prevent the triple overlapping among three circles. Sure, we can distribute 70 out of 80 area units of circle C. The 10 units left have no way to be distributed, but go directly into the overlapped zone between D and M. Thus, minimum triple overlapped area is 10 units.

If you try this to all the remaining cases, the results are also the same :

Not-overlapped zone between D and C: 100 - 55 = 45. Distribute circle M (55 units), we still have 10 units being triple overlapped.
Not-overlapped zone between M and C: 100 - 35 = 65. Distribute circle D (75 units), we still have 10 units being triple overlapped.

Thus, x - y = 55 - 10 = 45.
Pick C.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Awaiting for expert to give out the most convenient approach to this.
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by fskilnik@GMATH » Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:27 am
limestone wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong. Awaiting for expert to give out the most convenient approach to this.
Hi there, limestone.

Your solution is correct (well done), but in fact it seems that we are "arbitrating some things", right?! That´s why you´ve probably asked for a "more convenient approach", I guess...

Let me show you my approach (although I am not officially a BTG Expert, important to mention), that I believe it´s quick, 100% formal and "bullet-proof"... (The reason it is given as a figure is because it´s one of the 18 problems presented in my "Express Class #2" GMAT online prep.)

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Fabio.

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by limestone » Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:26 am
Wow fskilnik, I must say this is amazing!

I am not taught about complicated Venn Diagram like this. Obviously, there's always an official approach to problems like this.
Plug in or go around the bush sometimes cannot save the day. Haha

Thanks for your remarkable solution.
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by fskilnik@GMATH » Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:46 am
limestone wrote:Wow fskilnik, I must say this is amazing!
Thanks for your remarkable solution.
Thank you very much, limestone. This is one of the hardest GMAT-like Venn diagrams problems I´ve already seen, for sure. I took much more than 3 minutes to find this solution, for sure... but now we would take much less time than that, and that´s what REALLY matters... THAT means studying for the test, IMHO. :)
limestone wrote:Obviously, there's always an official approach to problems like this.
Plug in or go around the bush sometimes cannot save the day.
My suggestion: run away from "picking/plugging numbers", "back-solving" or other "hocus-pocus smart techniques" because this sort of thing will be "blocked" by the examiners when you start to go really well in your ADAPTIVE exam. Please do not forget that every guy may learn to be smart rather quickly, but only a few of the candidates will do the "extra-mile" to be superior problem-solvers... (people quit when they start to understand it takes time and effort to LEARN the GMAT content properly...)

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by Testtrainer » Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:54 pm
I solved this nasty question by using a formula and knowing what the GMAT likes to test. I confess that I was making a darn good guess because no way could I have done in the math in less than 5 minutes.

Beyond the whole Venn-diagram/formula/grid concepts, the GMAT also likes to test the following basic concepts when it comes to overlapping sets:
1) The number of overlapping elements is no greater than the number of elements in the lowest-number group.
i.e. (sum of overlap) < (lowest number group)

2) The number of overlapping elements is no greater than the total number of elements.

I think that these concepts are annoyingly basic (not easy, but basic) - typical for the GMAT.

I use the following formula for 3-set overlap:

(Sum of each group) - (sum of each "exactly 2" overlaps + "exactly 3" overlap) = total

Thus:
75 + 80 + 55 - (sum of "exactly 2" + "exactly 3") = 100

Always simplifying, because the GMAT wants me to simplify:
(sum of "exactly 2" groups + "exactly 3") = 110

To maximize one term, look to minimize other terms.
If (sum of "exactly 2" groups) = 0, then ("exactly 3") = 110
BUT
Recall: (sum of overlap) < (lowest number group)
Since the "lowest number group" = 55, the "exactly 3" is no more than 55.
i.e. ("exactly 3") < 55

To minimize one term, look to maximize other terms.
If ("exactly 3") = 0, then (sum of "exactly 2") =110.
BUT
Recall: (sum of overlap) < total
Thus: (sum of "exactly 2") < 100.
Since the maximum of ("exactly 2") = 100, the minimum for "exactly 3" must be 10.
i.e. ("exactly 3") > 10

So: 10 > ("exactly 3") > 55

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by lunarpower » Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:18 pm
My suggestion: run away from "picking/plugging numbers", "back-solving" or other "hocus-pocus smart techniques" because this sort of thing will be "blocked" by the examiners when you start to go really well in your ADAPTIVE exam.
no offense, but, this is probably the wrong-est thing i've ever seen written on this forum. in fact, these backup methods are empirically more likely to work as the problems become more difficult -- the harder problems can usually be attacked from more angles (including these ones), while easier problems tend to be more straightforward and computational.
in fact, i've had private students gain 10 quant points solely from the use of backup methods, with no additional studying of "textbook" methods. obviously they aren't perfect, and there are some problems that are inaccessible to them, but they are still an incredibly valuable addition to your problem-solving repertoire.

in any case, "running away" from any method that has a decent success rate is a rather silly idea: because of the unusual and unconventional nature of the problems, the ideal goal is to accumulate AS MANY METHODS AS POSSIBLE for solving them.
if a problem can be solved by "textbook methods" AND by, say, backsolving, then you should learn both methods! this way, if the first thing you try on test day doesn't work, you have ... something else to try.

put another way -- if i only have 1 way to approach a problem, while you have 3 ways to approach that problem (including my 1 way!), then i lose and you win.
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by lunarpower » Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:21 pm
oh, and, this problem is waaayyyyy too hard for the GMAT, and, frankly, should just be ignored by people studying for the GMAT.
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by schoolmarm » Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:35 pm
I got stumped by this one too. 800score includes a link with the explanation.

this was probably one of the the hardest questions in their tests.

https://www.gmat-mba-prep.com/forum/view ... f=70&t=211

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by Stuart@KaplanGMAT » Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:20 pm
lunarpower wrote:
My suggestion: run away from "picking/plugging numbers", "back-solving" or other "hocus-pocus smart techniques" because this sort of thing will be "blocked" by the examiners when you start to go really well in your ADAPTIVE exam.
no offense, but, this is probably the wrong-est thing i've ever seen written on this forum.
Damn Ron, you beat me to it!
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by sanju09 » Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:09 am
oh I am sorry to visit this thread, what's the source of this question HPengineer?
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by lunarpower » Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:11 am
sanju09 wrote:oh I am sorry to visit this thread, what's the source of this question HPengineer?
it's in the title of the thread.
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by sanju09 » Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:40 am
lunarpower wrote:
sanju09 wrote:oh I am sorry to visit this thread, what's the source of this question HPengineer?
it's in the title of the thread.
Thanks Ron, now I see the title again. As far as I know about the source, it hardly includes a concept that is out of scope of GMAT, and I do also believe that the concept of 3 intersecting sets may be tested when a test taker is looming to a perfect score. I might be wrong here, why not? IMHO limestone has already provided one of the smartest approach to the problem.
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by lunarpower » Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:00 am
sanju09 wrote:
lunarpower wrote:
sanju09 wrote:oh I am sorry to visit this thread, what's the source of this question HPengineer?
it's in the title of the thread.
Thanks Ron, now I see the title again. As far as I know about the source, it hardly includes a concept that is out of scope of GMAT, and I do also believe that the concept of 3 intersecting sets may be tested when a test taker is looming to a perfect score. I might be wrong here, why not? IMHO limestone has already provided one of the smartest approach to the problem.
sure, problems with 3 overlapping sets are within the scope of the test -- but this particular problem is much more difficult and time-consuming than anything that would legitimately show up on the exam.
keeping in mind the fact that this is as much a test of time management as of actual mathematical reasoning, it's important to practice on problems whose difficulty at least roughly resembles that of the real exam problems.
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by sanju09 » Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:06 am
agree with that Ron, and I also believe that we haven't booed any idea too out of proportion in this thread. :)
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