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comma + with(expert please explain)

by arghya05 » Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:00 pm

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Bihar is India's poorest state, with an annual per capita income of $111, lower than in the most impoverished countries of the world.
(A) lower than in
(B) lower than that of
(C) and lower than that of
(D) which is lower than in
(E) which is lower than it is in

i want to know with an annual per capita income of $111 is a prepositional phrase that modifies the entire action before the comma just as participle phrase.
as both are adverbal


comma + lower is an adjective which modifies income or bihar.how can we know that comma + adjective
modifies which subject

if there was a choice F like


which is lower than that of which one hould be correct.


Please explain two rules

comma + with(comma + prepositional phrase)

Comma + adjective(lower higher etc)
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by bubbliiiiiiii » Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:33 am

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E
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by sameerballani » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:01 am

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arghya05 wrote:Bihar is India's poorest state, with an annual per capita income of $111, lower than in the most impoverished countries of the world.
(A) lower than in
(B) lower than that of
(C) and lower than that of
(D) which is lower than in
(E) which is lower than it is in

i want to know with an annual per capita income of $111 is a prepositional phrase that modifies the entire action before the comma just as participle phrase.
as both are adverbal

I am not sure but i feel with an annual per capita income of $111 modifies only Bihar not the complete part before comma.

comma + lower is an adjective which modifies income or bihar.how can we know that comma + adjective
modifies which subject

comma + lower is an adjective which modifies income. Bihar cannot be lower. go with the MEANING of the sentence.


if there was a choice F like

which is lower than that of..... which one should be correct.

The use of WHICH seems correct to me, but i am not sure whether we should use that of or those of in this case.

IMO E

Please explain two rules

comma + with(comma + prepositional phrase)

Comma + adjective(lower higher etc)
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by Frankenstein » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:20 am

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Bihar is India's poorest state, with an annual per capita income of $111, lower than that(annual per capita income) of ...

IMO, B
Please post the OA in spoiler.
Cheers!

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by e-GMAT » Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:06 pm

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Good discussion.

You post a very good question.

"¢ "with" modifiers are very versatile modifiers. They can modify either the preceding clause or the preceding nouns. What they modify actually depends on the context of the sentence and the wording of the modifier itself.

In this sentence, with modifier actually modifies the preceding noun. With modifier in this sentence has the following sense
India's poorest state, which has an annual per capita income of $111
Notice how "which has" can be understood to replace "with".

However, this modifier can be understood to modify the subject of the clause as well because of the nature of the verb - is. This is a linking verb, which establishes the following relationship:
Bihar = India's poorest state.
So whatever modifies India's poorest state also modifies Bihar. You can notice similar behavior of the verb-ed modifier in OG12#5 - Diabetes ranks as...

Now lets consider a scenario in which "with" modifier modifies the preceding clause.
This is a GMATPrep Question. You can find the detailed solution of this question at this link.

Visitors to the park have often looked up into the leafy canopy and seen monkeys sleeping on the branches, with arms and legs hanging like socks on a clothesline.

The highlighted modifier above modifies the preceding clause. In essence this sentence can be written as two separate sentences:
1. Visitors to the park have often looked up into the leafy canopy and seen monkeys sleeping on the branches,
2. Their arms and legs are hung like socks on a clothesline.
So sentence 2 has been converted into with modifier. This modifier extends the thought of the preceding clause by providing a detail supporting it.

Now if the above sounds very complicated, then do not worry about it. As long as you know that these modifiers are versatile and hence can modify preceding clause and preceding nouns, you would be fine. Let the meaning of the sentence guide you. You should understand the meaning of the sentence and ensure that one of these roles fit well.

"¢ Coming to your second doubt about comma + adjective. Good question again. And I believe you have answered this question on your own. Here is how: The correct sentence with choice B is actually a derivative of the sentence with Choice F as suggested by you:

Bihar is India's poorest state, with an annual per capita income of $111, which is lower than that of the most impoverished countries of the world.

Typically this is how such modifiers are derived. As you can see they are derived from which modifiers, and hence they modify the closest noun instead of the far far away noun - subject of the clause in this case. Furthermore, you yourself indicated that "lower" is an adjective. An adjective cannot modify a clause. It can modify nouns or pronouns only.
Last edited by e-GMAT on Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
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by GMATMadeEasy » Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:47 pm

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e-GMAT wrote:Good discussion.
"¢ Coming to your second doubt about comma + adjective. Good question again. And I believe you have answered this question on your own. Here is how: The correct sentence with choice B is actually a derivative of the sentence with Choice F as suggested by you:

Bihar is India's poorest state, with an annual per capita income of $111, which is lower than that of the most impoverished countries of the world.

Typically this is how such modifiers are derived. As you can see they are derived from which modifiers, and hence they modify the closest noun instead of the far far away noun - subject of the clause in this case. Furthermore, you yourself indicated that "lower" is an adjective. An adjective cannot modify a clause. It can modify nouns or pronouns only.
Thanks Payal. The explanation of with was excellent. But I am not clear of the part quoted above. Can you explain it a little more please.

Could we apply the above on answer choice B in which in place of lower, fewer is given. Indeed, if you could explain how this type of modifier (fewer,lower) do behave, will be of great help.

Only seven people this century have been killed by the great white shark, the man-eater of the movies-less than those killed by bee stings.
A. movies-less than those
B. movies-fewer than have been
C. movies, which is less than those
D. movies, a number lower than the people
E. movies, fewer than the ones
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by phanideepak » Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:50 pm

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GMATMadeEasy wrote:
e-GMAT wrote:Good discussion.
"¢ Coming to your second doubt about comma + adjective. Good question again. And I believe you have answered this question on your own. Here is how: The correct sentence with choice B is actually a derivative of the sentence with Choice F as suggested by you:

Bihar is India's poorest state, with an annual per capita income of $111, which is lower than that of the most impoverished countries of the world.

Typically this is how such modifiers are derived. As you can see they are derived from which modifiers, and hence they modify the closest noun instead of the far far away noun - subject of the clause in this case. Furthermore, you yourself indicated that "lower" is an adjective. An adjective cannot modify a clause. It can modify nouns or pronouns only.
Thanks Payal. The explanation of with was excellent. But I am not clear of the part quoted above. Can you explain it a little more please.

Could we apply the above on answer choice B in which in place of lower, fewer is given. Indeed, if you could explain how this type of modifier (fewer,lower) do behave, will be of great help.

Only seven people this century have been killed by the great white shark, the man-eater of the movies-less than those killed by bee stings.
A. movies-less than those
B. movies-fewer than have been
C. movies, which is less than those
D. movies, a number lower than the people Incorrect comparision
E. movies, fewer than the ones
@Gmatdestroyer

For the above question which you have posted is the answer E ??

My reasoning is that Fewer as an adjective can refer to only a number in the subject and that refers to 'The seven people'
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by lunarpower » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:08 am

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arghya05 wrote:Bihar is India's poorest state, with an annual per capita income of $111, lower than in the most impoverished countries of the world.
(A) lower than in
(B) lower than that of
(C) and lower than that of
(D) which is lower than in
(E) which is lower than it is in

i want to know with an annual per capita income of $111 is a prepositional phrase that modifies the entire action before the comma just as participle phrase.
as both are adverbal
generally, this is how "comma + preposition" works.
e-gmat has written a good treatment above.

comma + lower is an adjective which modifies income or bihar.how can we know that comma + adjective
modifies which subject
generally, it will modify a noun that is fairly close to the comma.
if the construction close to the comma is something like NOUN1 + preposition + NOUN2, then you will usually have to use common sense, along with the meaning of the sentence, to determine whether it modifies NOUN1 or NOUN2.
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by lunarpower » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:11 am

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Could we apply the above on answer choice B in which in place of lower, fewer is given. Indeed, if you could explain how this type of modifier (fewer,lower) do behave, will be of great help.
no.

"fewer" is used for distinct things that are countable. people are countable, so "fewer people" makes sense. ("lower people" would be nonsense.)

"lower" is used either for things that are physically lower than other things (Medellín is at a lower elevation than Bogotá) or for numerical quantities (the tax rate in Washington is lower than in California). in both of these examples, "fewer" would be nonsense, because an elevation and a tax rate are not numbers of countable objects.
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by GMATMadeEasy » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:58 am

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Thanks Ron for citing the difference. It helps for beter understanding of lower. My question,though, is much braoder . Sorry, I was not clear enough as I made assumptions to myself that person reading the post will get what I want . I reproduce the question :
Only seven people this century have been killed by the great white shark, the man-eater of the movies-less than those killed by bee stings.
A. movies-less than those
B. movies-fewer than have been
C. movies, which is less than those
D. movies, a number lower than the people
E. movies, fewer than the ones

Question: How the construct/structure of B can be explained? Basically, I might solve this question but I do not get how 'fewer' is placed so far and what kind of modifier it is ? So I learn from this question. I have gone through your post explaining why each of the other answer choices is wrong.

Is fewer playing role of fewer people where people is understood ? If So, how these things work ?
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by sameerballani » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:08 am

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GMATMadeEasy wrote:Thanks Ron for citing the difference. It helps for beter understanding of lower. My question,though, is much braoder . Sorry, I was not clear enough as I made assumptions to myself that person reading the post will get what I want . I reproduce the question :
Only seven people this century have been killed by the great white shark, the man-eater of the movies-less than those killed by bee stings.
A. movies-less than those
B. movies-fewer than have been
C. movies, which is less than those
D. movies, a number lower than the people
E. movies, fewer than the ones

Question: How the construct/structure of B can be explained? Basically, I might solve this question but I do not get how 'fewer' is placed so far and what kind of modifier it is ? So I learn from this question. I have gone through your post explaining why each of the other answer choices is wrong.

Is fewer playing role of fewer people where people is understood ? If So, how these things work ?
my inputs:

Only seven people this century have been killed by the great white shark, the man-eater of the movies-fewer than [people who] have been killed by bee stings.
Construction is: X is fewer than Y.
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by dv2020 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:16 am

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GMATMadeEasy wrote:Thanks Ron for citing the difference. It helps for beter understanding of lower. My question,though, is much braoder . Sorry, I was not clear enough as I made assumptions to myself that person reading the post will get what I want . I reproduce the question :
Only seven people this century have been killed by the great white shark, the man-eater of the movies-less than those killed by bee stings.
A. movies-less than those
B. movies-fewer than have been
C. movies, which is less than those
D. movies, a number lower than the people
E. movies, fewer than the ones

Question: How the construct/structure of B can be explained? Basically, I might solve this question but I do not get how 'fewer' is placed so far and what kind of modifier it is ? So I learn from this question. I have gone through your post explaining why each of the other answer choices is wrong.

Is fewer playing role of fewer people where people is understood ? If So, how these things work ?
refer link where ron has dealt with the issues
https://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/can ... t4278.html
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by GMATMadeEasy » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:15 am

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@dv2020: of course, I have gone through it even twice as there are many concepts discussed. I have already mentioned this in my post for the same reason. Thanks for citing it anyways as you might have missed the detail :).

I really miss the type of construct it is ? And also, if I have to memorize the same, what pattern it is?
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by arghya05 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:08 am

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The Anasazi settlements at Chaco Canyon were built on a spectacular scale with more than 75 carefully engineered structures, of up to 600 rooms each, were connected by a complex regional system of roads.
A. with more than 75 carefully engineered structures, of up to 600 rooms each, were
B. with more than 75 carefully engineered structures, of up to 600 rooms each,
C. of more than 75 carefully engineered structures of up to 600 rooms, each that had been
D. of more than 75 carefully engineered structures of up to 600 rooms and with each
E. of more than 75 carefully engineered structures of up to 600 rooms each had been

see the same logic applies here with gives additional informations how Chaco Canyon is built.
I have found most og questions as based on same skeleton concept.people internalizing those concept
should get from most from og question

expert please suggest
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by lunarpower » Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:04 am

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GMATMadeEasy wrote:I really miss the type of construct it is ? And also, if I have to memorize the same, what pattern it is?
this really isn't the right way to look at comparisons. see, there are probably a hundred million zillion ways to write a comparison -- so, if you try to memorize them all, you simply won't be able to.
this is the whole point of the SC section!
the vast majority of errors tested on SC are things that are extremely difficult or even impossible to memorize, but that rest on much simpler *conceptual* foundations.

here's the basic way in which you should apprehend comparisons --
1) Figure out what matches what -- in other words, figure out which concepts in the first half of the comparison correspond to which concepts in the second half.
then...
2) check the answer choices for the best MATCH between these concepts.

what's great about this is that you don't have to know the actual structures; you just have to be able to look at them and see if they match.

here, the matching concepts are ...
people <--> [people]
have been killed <--> have been killed
by the great white shark <--> by bee stings

in choice (b) the parts match perfectly -- "have been" matches "have been", and "killed by the great white shark" matches "killed by bee stings". (notice that people <--> people doesn't appear; this is fine.)

trying to memorize every little construction that you might see is only going to cause you to lose sight of this bigger picture.
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