comma + with(expert please explain)

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by GMATMadeEasy » Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:38 am
thanks Ron. My way of doing SC certainly has changed.

I have noted this extra point you have mentioned. Let me see how efficiently i can use it.

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by boazkhan » Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:16 pm
What's the OA for the question. I picked B?

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by mankey » Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:28 pm
Is the OA "B"?

Thanks.

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by mankey » Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:22 am
What is the OA for this one?

Thanks.

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by Lifetron » Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:55 pm
IMO B !

Awesome explanation by e-GMAT ! Cleared a lot of doubts !

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by vietnam47 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:31 am
GMATMadeEasy wrote:Thanks Ron for citing the difference. It helps for beter understanding of lower. My question,though, is much braoder . Sorry, I was not clear enough as I made assumptions to myself that person reading the post will get what I want . I reproduce the question :
Only seven people this century have been killed by the great white shark, the man-eater of the movies-less than those killed by bee stings.
A. movies-less than those
B. movies-fewer than have been
C. movies, which is less than those
D. movies, a number lower than the people
E. movies, fewer than the ones

Question: How the construct/structure of B can be explained? Basically, I might solve this question but I do not get how 'fewer' is placed so far and what kind of modifier it is ? So I learn from this question. I have gone through your post explaining why each of the other answer choices is wrong.

Is fewer playing role of fewer people where people is understood ? If So, how these things work ?
we can get to the correct answer but do not understand its pattern. I am in this situation many time. look at choice b.
"fewer than..." work as an adverb and refer to the subject of the main clause. this case is popular.
I learn gmat, making my english better.
"making..." refer to the subject "I", but work as an adverb modifying the whole main clause. choice b is similar.

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by vietnam47 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:16 am
GMATMadeEasy wrote:Thanks Ron for citing the difference. It helps for beter understanding of lower. My question,though, is much braoder . Sorry, I was not clear enough as I made assumptions to myself that person reading the post will get what I want . I reproduce the question :
Only seven people this century have been killed by the great white shark, the man-eater of the movies-less than those killed by bee stings.
A. movies-less than those
B. movies-fewer than have been
C. movies, which is less than those
D. movies, a number lower than the people
E. movies, fewer than the ones

Question: How the construct/structure of B can be explained? Basically, I might solve this question but I do not get how 'fewer' is placed so far and what kind of modifier it is ? So I learn from this question. I have gone through your post explaining why each of the other answer choices is wrong.

Is fewer playing role of fewer people where people is understood ? If So, how these things work ?
this is special comparison question. we can not say that 7 persons are fewer /less than the people/one because there is not specific number in the second half of comparison. "7 persons are fewer than 5 persons" is possibly correct.

we can not say "7 persons are fewer/less than the number of persons killed by bee stings" because "the number" must be "greater", not "fewer" or "more".

the best way to make the comparison of this kind is to cut off the second element of comparison. we have to infer the second element of comparison. this case create a special pattern of comparison , in which the second element comparison is understood, not explicitly writen. there are many OA in og and gmatprep , which are similar to this OA.
normally, we cut of the phrase in the second half of comparison if this phrase appear in the first half of comparison. we can not cut of the second element of comparison. but in this problem, we do not expose the second element of comparison. this is special

remember this special pattern. no second element of comparison appears.

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by vietnam47 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:24 am
e-GMAT wrote:Good discussion.

You post a very good question.

"¢ "with" modifiers are very versatile modifiers. They can modify either the preceding clause or the preceding nouns. What they modify actually depends on the context of the sentence and the wording of the modifier itself.

In this sentence, with modifier actually modifies the preceding noun. With modifier in this sentence has the following sense
India's poorest state, which has an annual per capita income of $111
Notice how "which has" can be understood to replace "with".

However, this modifier can be understood to modify the subject of the clause as well because of the nature of the verb - is. This is a linking verb, which establishes the following relationship:
Bihar = India's poorest state.
So whatever modifies India's poorest state also modifies Bihar. You can notice similar behavior of the verb-ed modifier in OG12#5 - Diabetes ranks as...

Now lets consider a scenario in which "with" modifier modifies the preceding clause.
This is a GMATPrep Question. You can find the detailed solution of this question at this link.

Visitors to the park have often looked up into the leafy canopy and seen monkeys sleeping on the branches, with arms and legs hanging like socks on a clothesline.

The highlighted modifier above modifies the preceding clause. In essence this sentence can be written as two separate sentences:
1. Visitors to the park have often looked up into the leafy canopy and seen monkeys sleeping on the branches,
2. Their arms and legs are hung like socks on a clothesline.
So sentence 2 has been converted into with modifier. This modifier extends the thought of the preceding clause by providing a detail supporting it.

Now if the above sounds very complicated, then do not worry about it. As long as you know that these modifiers are versatile and hence can modify preceding clause and preceding nouns, you would be fine. Let the meaning of the sentence guide you. You should understand the meaning of the sentence and ensure that one of these roles fit well.

"¢ Coming to your second doubt about comma + adjective. Good question again. And I believe you have answered this question on your own. Here is how: The correct sentence with choice B is actually a derivative of the sentence with Choice F as suggested by you:

Bihar is India's poorest state, with an annual per capita income of $111, which is lower than that of the most impoverished countries of the world.

Typically this is how such modifiers are derived. As you can see they are derived from which modifiers, and hence they modify the closest noun instead of the far far away noun - subject of the clause in this case. Furthermore, you yourself indicated that "lower" is an adjective. An adjective cannot modify a clause. It can modify nouns or pronouns only.
with+noun can work as an adjective or adverb. when work as an adverb , 2 cases happen
case 1, "with+noun" dose not refer to any noun in the sentence. this case is more popular.

I learn gmat hard, with my classmate going out for change.
case 2, "with+noun" refer to a specific noun in the sentence
Visitors to the park have often looked up into the leafy canopy and seen monkeys sleeping on the branches, with arms and legs hanging like socks on a clothesline.
in this sentence, "with arms and legs" refer to "monkeys" and modify the "monkey sleeping". "with arms and legs" must refer to "monkey" for the meaning to be clear.
case 2 is seldom on gmatprep. but be ready to face it and dont eliminate it when you do assumption no reference work.