num property, hard and official one

This topic has expert replies
Legendary Member
Posts: 1404
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 6:55 pm
Thanked: 18 times
Followed by:2 members

num property, hard and official one

by tanviet » Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:03 am
Leo can buy a certain computer for p1 dollars in State A, where the sales tax is t1 percent, or he can buy the same computer for p2 in State B, where the sales tax is t2 percent. Is the total cost of the computer greater in State A than in in State B

1, t1>t2

2, p1t1>p2t2

pls, help with this
Source: — Data Sufficiency |

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 3650
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:27 am
Location: India
Thanked: 267 times
Followed by:80 members
GMAT Score:760

by sanju09 » Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:12 am
Cost of computer in State A = $p1 [(100 + t1)/100].

Cost of computer in State B = $p2 [(100 + t2)/100], if p2 were in dollars that I guess should be the case here.

Now the question is: Is $p1 [(100 + t1)/100] > $p2 [(100 + t2)/100]?

It is evident here that the cost in each case is directly proportional to both p and t, hence (1) alone won’t suffice for sure.

For (2) if p1 t1 > p2 t2 ≡ p1 t1/100 > p2 t2/100; this still does not guarantee $p1 [(100 + t1)/100] > $p2 [(100 + t2)/100], for p1 and p2 could have conflicting values, so could t1 and t2 have.

Let’s go for the amalgamation now.

The protracted form of the question is: Is p1 + (p1 t1/100) > p2 + (p2 t2/100)

Since t1 > t2 from (1) and p1 t1/100 > p2 t2/100 as construed from (2), we are still in no position to reply assertively. So E for me. We can take arbitrary positive numbers for p1/t1/p2/t2 to see the conflicting deductions, instead of following all what is written above, that will save time :)
The mind is everything. What you think you become. -Lord Buddha



Sanjeev K Saxena
Quantitative Instructor
The Princeton Review - Manya Abroad
Lucknow-226001

www.manyagroup.com

Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
Posts: 418
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:29 am
Thanked: 65 times

by bluementor » Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:58 am
Statement 1: no info on p1 and p2. Insufficient.

Statement 2: this only compares the taxes and we have no info on the actual tax percentages and the prices. Insufficient.


When both statements combined:

t1/t2 > 1 (statement 1) and t1/t2 > p2/p1 (statement 2). From here, we can deduce either of these:


case 1: t1/t2 > p2/p1 > 1 , or
case 2: t1/t2 > 1 > p2/p1
case 3: p1 = p2

let's try each of these cases.


case 1: if t1 = 10%, t2 = 1% (t1>t2) and if p1 = $10 and p2 = $20, then:

p1 + p1t1 < p2 + p2t2 (answer to question stem: NO)

case 2: if t1 = 10% , t2=1% (t2>t1) and if p1 = $15 and p2 = $10, then:

p1 + p1t1 > p2 + p2t2 (answer to question stem: YES))

you will see that case 3 also answers the question stem as YES.

Clearly, you can have contradicting results even with both statements combined.

Choose E.

-BM-

Newbie | Next Rank: 10 Posts
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:50 pm

by bondguy » Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:14 pm
Leo can buy a certain computer for p1 dollars in State A, where the sales tax is t1 percent, or he can
buy the same computer for p2 dollars in State B, where the sales tax is t2 percent. Is the total cost
of the computer greater in State A than in State B?
(1) t1 > t2
(2) p1t1 > p2t2



gmat740 wrote:Hi,

Sorry for opening this thread again. Can anybody provide me another method rather than plugging values.

Thanks

Cost in state A = p1 + p1*t1
cost in state b = p2 + p2*t2

cost difference = (p1-p2) + (p1*t1 - p2*t2)

stmt 1: t1 > t2 - doesn't help in figuring out the above
(as p1 and p2 could be any values)
=> Insufficient

stmt 2 : p1*t1 > p2*t2 - doesn't help (p1,p2,t1,t2 could have different values maintaining the above relationship)
=> Insufficient

St1 + st2
from st1 , t1 > t2 and
from st2 : p1*t1 > p2 t2 => p1*t1 - p2*t2
still doesn't give us info about p1-p2

(e.g. t1 = 2 , t2=1
p1=4,p2=7 gives p1*t1 > p2*t2 , total cost < 0
but with
p1=4 and p2=2 , p1*t1 > p2*t2 , but total cost > 0)

Hence E

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 3650
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:27 am
Location: India
Thanked: 267 times
Followed by:80 members
GMAT Score:760

by sanju09 » Sat Sep 19, 2009 3:03 am
:|

sorry as I was away from this site since a long time; hope to see someone helping gmat740 very soon

:roll:
Attachments
evolution-of-humour.gif
The mind is everything. What you think you become. -Lord Buddha



Sanjeev K Saxena
Quantitative Instructor
The Princeton Review - Manya Abroad
Lucknow-226001

www.manyagroup.com

Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun May 10, 2009 7:53 am

by sanjib » Sat Sep 19, 2009 5:10 am
how u know that the Price of Computer in either cities is not inclusive of Sales tax.SO if instead of t1>t2 the statement is p1>p2 the ans will be A or C.

GMAT/MBA Expert

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 2623
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:17 am
Location: Montreal
Thanked: 1090 times
Followed by:355 members
GMAT Score:780

Re: num property, hard and official one

by Ian Stewart » Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:01 am
duongthang wrote:Leo can buy a certain computer for p1 dollars in State A, where the sales tax is t1 percent, or he can buy the same computer for p2 in State B, where the sales tax is t2 percent. Is the total cost of the computer greater in State A than in in State B

1, t1>t2

2, p1t1>p2t2
sanjib wrote:how u know that the Price of Computer in either cities is not inclusive of Sales tax.SO if instead of t1>t2 the statement is p1>p2 the ans will be A or C.
I don't much like the wording of this question (though it is an official question), because it isn't quite clear whether the prices p_1 and p_2 include the sales tax or not. Going by the wording of the question, it appears that the prices include tax, but judging by the solution in the OG (which is a mess in my edition - full of typos), the prices do not include the tax. It doesn't matter, however; the answer is E either way.

If the prices do not include tax, then Statement 1 tells us the tax rate is higher in State A, and Statement 2 tells us that one will pay more tax on the computer in State A. Well, since State A has a higher tax rate, that shouldn't be too surprising. We might have a 0% tax rate in State B, and a 100% tax rate in State A, in which case p_2 can be $1,000,000, and p_1 can be $1, and both Statements are true even though the second computer is vastly more expensive to purchase than the first.

Even if the prices do include the tax, we can use the same numbers to show that the two Statements together are not sufficient.
For online GMAT math tutoring, or to buy my higher-level Quant books and problem sets, contact me at ianstewartgmat at gmail.com

ianstewartgmat.com

Newbie | Next Rank: 10 Posts
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2010 4:56 pm
Location: Australia
GMAT Score:480

by All4GMAT » Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:11 pm
I have a solution which differs from the Official Guide answer - E. I think the question's answer is C, i.e. both statements together are sufficient to answer the question.

Question is if P1 + T1/100 (P1) > P2 + T2/100 (P2) ??

Solution:

From Statement 1 : T1 > T2
So, T1/100 > T2/100

So, 1 + T1/100 > 1 + T2/100

So, P1 (1 + T1/100) > P1 (1 + T2/100) -------------- I

From Statement 2 : P1T1 > P2T2

Dividing Statement 2 by Statement 1, we have

P1T1/T1 > P2T2/T2

So, P1 > P2 ------------------------------------------------ II

From Statement I and II,

P1 (1 + T1/100) > P2 (1 + T2/100)

Thus, P1 + T1/100 (P1) > P2 + T2/100 (P2)

Shouldn't the answer be C?

Please correct me if I am wrong guys??

GMAT/MBA Expert

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 2623
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:17 am
Location: Montreal
Thanked: 1090 times
Followed by:355 members
GMAT Score:780

by Ian Stewart » Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:49 am
All4GMAT wrote:I have a solution which differs from the Official Guide answer - E. I think the question's answer is C, i.e. both statements together are sufficient to answer the question.

Question is if P1 + T1/100 (P1) > P2 + T2/100 (P2) ??

Solution:

From Statement 1 : T1 > T2
So, T1/100 > T2/100

So, 1 + T1/100 > 1 + T2/100

So, P1 (1 + T1/100) > P1 (1 + T2/100) -------------- I

From Statement 2 : P1T1 > P2T2

Dividing Statement 2 by Statement 1, we have

P1T1/T1 > P2T2/T2

So, P1 > P2 ------------------------------------------------ II

From Statement I and II,

P1 (1 + T1/100) > P2 (1 + T2/100)

Thus, P1 + T1/100 (P1) > P2 + T2/100 (P2)

Shouldn't the answer be C?

Please correct me if I am wrong guys??
I've highlighted your mistake; you can't divide one inequality by another. For example, the following inequalities are both true:

10 > 3
5 > 1

but if you divide the first inequality by the second, what you'll get certainly is not true.
For online GMAT math tutoring, or to buy my higher-level Quant books and problem sets, contact me at ianstewartgmat at gmail.com

ianstewartgmat.com

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 1449
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:16 pm
Thanked: 59 times
Followed by:33 members

by fskilnik@GMATH » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:17 am
All4GMAT wrote:Please correct me if I am wrong guys??
Hi, All4GMAT... were you not satisfied by my answer to your very same question posted (before) here:

https://www.beatthegmat.com/og-ds-79-t65008.html ??

(My answer there also includes a full solution to the problem...please let me know what part of it does not inspire your confidence, ok?)
Fabio Skilnik :: GMATH method creator ( Math for the GMAT)
English-speakers :: https://www.gmath.net
Portuguese-speakers :: https://www.gmath.com.br

Newbie | Next Rank: 10 Posts
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2011 3:56 am

by emilianoIT » Sun Jan 02, 2011 5:20 am
Hi all,
I have a different solution to this exercise.
I agree that both statements 1 and 2 alone are not sufficient, but combining them we have:

(1) t1 > t2
(2) p1*t1 > p2*t2

Since we know from (1) that t1 > t2, then if we divide each side by t2 we find that t1/t2 > 1.

Moreover, if we divide each side of (2) by t2 we obtain:
p1*(t1/t2) > p2

Since t1/t2 > 1 --> then p1 > p2.

Thus the answer is C.

Am I wrong?

Thanks guys.

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 1449
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:16 pm
Thanked: 59 times
Followed by:33 members

by fskilnik@GMATH » Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:48 pm
emilianoIT wrote:p1*(t1/t2) > p2

Since t1/t2 > 1 --> then p1 > p2.

Am I wrong?
Hi emilianoIT!

Yes, you are!

Please note that:

a*b > c with b > 1 does not mean that a>c... (counter-)example: 100*1,1 > 105 but 100 > 105 is false!

Regards,
Fabio.
Fabio Skilnik :: GMATH method creator ( Math for the GMAT)
English-speakers :: https://www.gmath.net
Portuguese-speakers :: https://www.gmath.com.br

Newbie | Next Rank: 10 Posts
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2011 3:56 am

by emilianoIT » Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:32 am
Hi Fabio!
I only have another question:

Do you mean that we cannot state that p1*(t1/t2)>p2 because we don't know the values of p1, p2, t1 and t2?

From a mathematical perspective, if we know that a*b>c*d, if we divide each side of the inequality by the same value d, then the result of the equation must be still true.

Examples:
4*3 > 5*2 --> (4*3)/2 > 5 --> 6 > 5 TRUE
5*4 > 4*4 --> (5*4)/4 > 4 --> 5 > 4 TRUE
2*3 > 2*2 --> (2*3)/2 > 2 --> 3 > 2 TRUE

Thus in our case, if we divide both the left side (p1*t1) and the right side (p2*t2) of the inequality by the same value (t2), the result must be still true.

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 1449
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:16 pm
Thanked: 59 times
Followed by:33 members

by fskilnik@GMATH » Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:02 am
emilianoIT wrote:Hi Fabio!
I only have another question:

Do you mean that we cannot state that p1*(t1/t2)>p2 because we don't know the values of p1, p2, t1 and t2?

From a mathematical perspective, if we know that a*b>c*d, if we divide each side of the inequality by the same value d, then the result of the equation must be still true.

Examples:
4*3 > 5*2 --> (4*3)/2 > 5 --> 6 > 5 TRUE
5*4 > 4*4 --> (5*4)/4 > 4 --> 5 > 4 TRUE
2*3 > 2*2 --> (2*3)/2 > 2 --> 3 > 2 TRUE

Thus in our case, if we divide both the left side (p1*t1) and the right side (p2*t2) of the inequality by the same value (t2), the result must be still true.
Hi emilianoIT!
Do you mean that we cannot state that p1*(t1/t2)>p2 because we don't know the values of p1, p2, t1 and t2?
No, that´s not the reason. Please note that you did NOT divide both sides by the same (t1/t2) amount to come to your conclusion... you would like to divide just the left-hand side, and I´ve shown to you that the implication:

p1*(t1/t2)>p2 AND t1/t2 > 1 does NOT imply p1 > p2
a*b>c*d, if we divide each side of the inequality by the same value d, then the result of the equation must be still true.
If we divide each side of the inequality by the same POSITIVE value d, then the INEQUALITY must be still true.

I hope things are clear now.

Regards,
Fabio.
Fabio Skilnik :: GMATH method creator ( Math for the GMAT)
English-speakers :: https://www.gmath.net
Portuguese-speakers :: https://www.gmath.com.br

Newbie | Next Rank: 10 Posts
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2011 3:56 am

by emilianoIT » Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:44 am
Hi fabio!
Please note that you did NOT divide both sides by the same (t1/t2) amount to come to your conclusion...
To come to my conclusion i did divide both side by the same amount t2, not by t1/t2...
If we divide each side of the inequality by the same POSITIVE value d, then the INEQUALITY must be still true.
In our situation we are dividing by t2 that is a sales tax vale, and it must be a positive value since it is a sales tax. How can a sales tax be negative?