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Need expert help on COMMA+BUT

by vk_vinayak » Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:12 am
According to scholars, the earliest writing was probably not a direct rendering of speech, but was more likely to begin as a separate and distinct symbolic system of communication, and only later merged with spoken language.

(A) was more likely to begin as
(B) more than likely began as
(C) more than likely beginning from
(D) it was more than likely begun from
(E) it was more likely that it began

Source: OG.
[spoiler]OA: B[/spoiler]

My question is regarding the COMMA+BUT and COMMA+AND. I know that COMMA+FANBOYS is used to link two independent clauses or link a last item in a list. Here it doesn't appear to be the case.

The other option contain obvious errors, but how in B the usage of COMMAs (followed by coordinating conjunction but no independent clauses) is correct? Is it an exception, or some sort of rule that I do not know. Please let me know your views.
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by Kasia@EconomistGMAT » Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:20 am
The clauses are INDEPENDENT.
Take a look:
According to scholars, the earliest writing was probably not a direct rendering of speech, but the earliest writing was more likely to begin as a separate and distinct symbolic system of communication, and only later the earliest writing merged with spoken language.


'The earliest writing' is the subject of all three clauses, but it is left out of the second and third clause because they would otherwise repeat what has been said in the first clause. This process is called ellipsis, so all the clauses above are independent.
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by vk_vinayak » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:00 am
Kasia@MasterGMAT wrote:The clauses are INDEPENDENT.
Take a look:
According to scholars, the earliest writing was probably not a direct rendering of speech, but the earliest writing was more likely to begin as a separate and distinct symbolic system of communication, and only later the earliest writing merged with spoken language.


'The earliest writing' is the subject of all three clauses, but it is left out of the second and third clause because they would otherwise repeat what has been said in the first clause. This process is called ellipsis, so all the clauses above are independent.
@Kasia, thanks for the explanation. Now with elliptical subject, these clauses are independent, but I expect at least a pronoun (if not the subject 'the earliest writing') to be explicitly present in those clauses. If you know of any OG problem that has an independent clause with subject in elliptical form, let me know.
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by hey_thr67 » Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:14 am
Here but acts as an conjunction to join two clauses and if the conjunction has same subject for both the clauses the subject needn't to be repeated.

Second for this problem specifically, the non-underlined part ,
and only later merged with spoken language.
will then have to have the pronoun to be in parallel. D and E are awkward to use.
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by GMATGuruNY » Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:34 pm
vk_vinayak wrote:According to scholars, the earliest writing was probably not a direct rendering of speech, but was more likely to begin as a separate and distinct symbolic system of communication, and only later merged with spoken language.

(A) was more likely to begin as
(B) more than likely began as
(C) more than likely beginning from
(D) it was more than likely begun from
(E) it was more likely that it began

Source: OG.
[spoiler]OA: B[/spoiler]

My question is regarding the COMMA+BUT and COMMA+AND. I know that COMMA+FANBOYS is used to link two independent clauses or link a last item in a list. Here it doesn't appear to be the case.

The other option contain obvious errors, but how in B the usage of COMMAs (followed by coordinating conjunction but no independent clauses) is correct? Is it an exception, or some sort of rule that I do not know. Please let me know your views.
John sprinted toward the goalposts and scored the winning touchdown.
Here, two actions are attributed to the same subject: sprinted and scored.
Since there are only two actions, no comma precedes AND.

John grabbed the ball, sprinted toward the goalposts, and scored the winning touchdown.
Here, THREE actions are attributed to the same subject: grabbed, sprinted, and scored.
THREE actions constitute a LIST.
Commas are needed to distinguish the entries in the list.
Note that no subject follows AND.

Similarly, the OA to the SC above offers a LIST of three actions attributed to the same subject: was probably not, but more than likely began, and only later merged.
While the second action is CONTRASTING -- and thus is preceded by the conjunction BUT -- the commas here serve the same purpose as above: to distinguish the entries in the list.
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by vk_vinayak » Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:44 am
Hi Mitch,

Because of the , but I couldn't recognize it as a list. Thanks for the explanation.
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by lunarpower » Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:12 pm
i received a private message about this while "comma + but/and" stuff.

MOST IMPORTANTLY
PUNCTUATION IS NOT TESTED ON THIS EXAM!
don't bother with "rules" based on punctuation, because (a) gmac doesn't test them, and, more importantly, (b) the vast majority of them will not actually be real rules.
the only time you'll want to mind punctuation, at all, is when it actually differentiates grammatical structures: for instance, "no comma + -ing" is different from "comma + -ing".
but, those kinds of things aren't really punctuation issues -- they are issues concerning the resulting structures. for instance, the example i just mentioned would be a modifier issue, not a punctuation issue.

--

regarding this whole belief that comma + and/but/etc MUST introduce another independent clause: well, not really.
this "rule" is not really a rule. it's an approximate guideline in most cases, but it's definitely not a strict rule.

* quite often, the comma will be omitted when there are two complete clauses -- if those clauses are short enough to render the comma unnecessary.
since the doors are locked and the windows are latched, we're ready to go.
--> this is fine; there's no reason to separate "the doors are locked" and "the windows are latched" with a comma. indeed, the sentence would be a lot more confusing if you did that.

* also -- again quite often -- a comma will be included even if the structures are not complete clauses, especially if the structures are long enough to make the sentence unreadable without the comma.
for instance:
i shut the windows and locked the doors --> this sentence doesn't need any additional punctuation.
i shut the windows so firmly that i would later have trouble opening them, and locked the doors using both the standard locks and the deadbolts --> these are not complete clauses, but the sentence is still written with the comma because it's absolutely unreadable without the comma. (try it yourself.)

again, this is all of marginal importance, because punctuation is Something You Just Don't Have To Worry About on this exam. that should be good news, considering the number of things you do have to worry about.
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by vk_vinayak » Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:06 pm
lunarpower wrote: again, this is all of marginal importance, because punctuation is Something You Just Don't Have To Worry About on this exam. that should be good news, considering the number of things you do have to worry about.
Thanks for the explanation, Ron. While employing the POE, I used to first employ the comma-and-independent-clauses. Now I know that it is the last thing to consider.
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by tanviet » Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:52 pm
Thank you Ron and HUnt,

if the rule is strict, it is more easy for us to learn. If it is not strict, it is hard for us to choose the correct answer .

another problem

in A, "the writing is likely" is correct or not.

we can not say "something is likely to do"

we have to say

" it is likey that something do"

is my thinking correct?

though this og question is simple , it kill me already.
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by tanviet » Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:33 am
lunarpower wrote:i received a private message about this while "comma + but/and" stuff.

MOST IMPORTANTLY
PUNCTUATION IS NOT TESTED ON THIS EXAM!
don't bother with "rules" based on punctuation, because (a) gmac doesn't test them, and, more importantly, (b) the vast majority of them will not actually be real rules.
the only time you'll want to mind punctuation, at all, is when it actually differentiates grammatical structures: for instance, "no comma + -ing" is different from "comma + -ing".
but, those kinds of things aren't really punctuation issues -- they are issues concerning the resulting structures. for instance, the example i just mentioned would be a modifier issue, not a punctuation issue.

--

regarding this whole belief that comma + and/but/etc MUST introduce another independent clause: well, not really.
this "rule" is not really a rule. it's an approximate guideline in most cases, but it's definitely not a strict rule.

* quite often, the comma will be omitted when there are two complete clauses -- if those clauses are short enough to render the comma unnecessary.
since the doors are locked and the windows are latched, we're ready to go.
--> this is fine; there's no reason to separate "the doors are locked" and "the windows are latched" with a comma. indeed, the sentence would be a lot more confusing if you did that.

* also -- again quite often -- a comma will be included even if the structures are not complete clauses, especially if the structures are long enough to make the sentence unreadable without the comma.
for instance:
i shut the windows and locked the doors --> this sentence doesn't need any additional punctuation.
i shut the windows so firmly that i would later have trouble opening them, and locked the doors using both the standard locks and the deadbolts --> these are not complete clauses, but the sentence is still written with the comma because it's absolutely unreadable without the comma. (try it yourself.)

again, this is all of marginal importance, because punctuation is Something You Just Don't Have To Worry About on this exam. that should be good news, considering the number of things you do have to worry about.
Thank you Ron

but in the following problem from og 13, choice A is wrong because "she" is redundant or because " comma" is missing

Joan of Arc, a young Frenchwoman who claimed to be divinely inspired, turned the tide of English victories in her country by liberating the city of Orleans and she persuaded Charles VII of France to claim his throne.

(A) she persuaded Charles VII of France to claim his throne
(B) persuaded Charles VII of France in claiming his throne
(C) persuading that the throne be claimed by Charles VII of France
(D) persuaded Charles VII of France to claim his throne
(E) persuading that Charles VII of France should claim the throne

pls, help
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by lunarpower » Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:56 pm
duongthang wrote:Thank you Ron and HUnt,

if the rule is strict, it is more easy for us to learn. If it is not strict, it is hard for us to choose the correct answer .
yes, but, this is the entire reason why the GMAT exists in the first place!

if this were all just a set of "strict rules" that you could just memorize, then there would be no reason for the GMAT to exist.

we can not say "something is likely to do"

we have to say

" it is likey that something do"
both of these constructions exist in english.
however...

1/
the first one is used in speaking about hypotheticals -- about the different ways in which something might turn out.
e.g.
knowing that the cat was likely to die without treatment, i took it to a veterinarian.
--> in the timeframe of the sentence, it's still uncertain whether the cat is going to die.
that's not what is going on in this sentence. in this sentence, the idea that the earliest writing was a separate system is definitely either true or false -- it's a historical fact -- but we (modern people) don't know for sure.

2/
in most cases, it's possible to replace "x is likely to VERB" with a more compact construction in which "likely" is an adverb.
for instance,
knowing that the cat was likely to die without treatment...
--> knowing that the cat would likely die without treatment...
the second of these is more stylistically formal. because this substitution is possible, you may not see "x is likely to VERB" very often on the gmat.
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by tanviet » Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:08 am
from the og 13 question I post and the original sentence (also from og 13) it is clear that

"comma+and" is used to connect 2 independent clauses

or to connect the last item in the list of at least 3 items.

This point is clearly tested on gmat. gmat will not test other things relating the puctuation.



However, some of grammar rules are not absolute. This means we can see the phrases which do not follow the grammar rules in the non underlined part of the og questions. Then, this mean we have to focus on meaning to find the incorrect choices.
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