Language of the trickiest questions on GMAT

This topic has expert replies
Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts
Posts: 75
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 5:04 pm
Thanked: 1 times
GMAT Score:760
Note: I have no issues regarding the solutions to the problems, only have doubts regarding the language for which I seek the advice of verbal experts. So I believe this post is correctly placed in the Verbal Section.




If a math problem states " there are some boys in the class", then in a such a question we cant take the number of boys=0
The explanation I have received is that, since the question mentions there "are" so we have to take atleast one.


Now consider problem no.38 D.s pg 276 OG 12.
If p1 and p2 are the populations and r1 and r2 are the numbers of representatives of District 1 and District 2, respectively, the ratio of the population to the number of representatives is greater for which of the two districts ?
(1) p1 > p2
(2) r2 > r1
OA=C
note the problem states that r1 and r1 are "numbers" yet the problem does not consider that these "numbers" could be zero in which case the answer would have been E as division by zero is non defined, but this is not considered in the explanation

Consider problem26 of the diagnostic test.
what is the value of the integer p?
(1)Each of the integers 2, 3 and 5 is a factor of p
(2) Each of the integers 2, 5 and 7
OA=E, Explantion says these are factors of but it is NOT clear that these are the ONLY factors of p. (fair enough! )

However, I have encountered various problems where one option might read " the number X has 2 and 3 as factors" in which case the word "only" is not mentioned, yet we are to take that 2 and 3 are the only factors of x.
Another example of this case:
how many 3 digit numbers from numbers 2,3,4,5 are possible in which 2 digits are same? In this problem in order to get the solution we solve only for numbers that have " 2 digits as same". My contention is that since the word "only" was not mentioned "we have to considered the possiblity of all 3 digits are same as well". Other contend that since "atleast" is not mentioned we are to stick to the possiblity when only 2 digits are same.


Last and most surprising.

Question 161
Beginning in January of last year, Carl made deposits of $120 into his account on the 15th of each month for several consecutive months and then made withdrawals of $50 from the account on the 15th of each of the remaining months of last year. There were no other transactions in the account last year. If the closing balance of Carl's account for May of last year was $2,600, what was the range of the monthly closing balances of Carl's account last year?

(1) Last year the closing balance of Carl's account for April was less than $2,625.
(2) Last year the closing balance of Carl's account for June was less than $2,675.
OA=C

To rule out each statement individually,the O.G in the explanation of the quesiton takes the extreme case one in which the depositor has deposited only for one month and withdrawn for several months, and another where he deposits for several months but withdraws only in one month.
My question is, when the question clearly states that deposits have been for "several months"-plural how can the o.g cite the case of only one month-singular?


Your reply would help me take the quantum leap on my test.
Thanks!
Source: — Sentence Correction |

User avatar
Legendary Member
Posts: 1172
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:20 pm
Thanked: 74 times
Followed by:4 members

by uwhusky » Sat Oct 09, 2010 10:54 pm
I think if you really want to get a response for this post, try to simplify your question and maybe reduce it down to a single question per post.
Yep.

GMAT/MBA Expert

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 3380
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 am
Thanked: 2256 times
Followed by:1535 members
GMAT Score:800

by lunarpower » Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:02 am
ok, i'm going to answer this stuff in several (= more than one ... haha) posts.
magnus opus wrote:If a math problem states " there are some boys in the class", then in a such a question we cant take the number of boys=0
The explanation I have received is that, since the question mentions there "are" so we have to take atleast one.
this is correct.

note that official problems will NOT make you consider the following things, if they say that "some" X's are Y's:
* whether all X's are Y's
* whether just one X could be a Y

if you take a class in formal logic, then you'll debate the issue of (and learn conventions about) whether "some" encompasses these cases.
however, official gmat problems will ALWAYS be written in such a way that these cases won't matter, or won't apply to the problem at hand. (they don't want a whole problem to turn on such nitpicky trivialities.)

Now consider problem no.38 D.s pg 276 OG 12.
If p1 and p2 are the populations and r1 and r2 are the numbers of representatives of District 1 and District 2, respectively, the ratio of the population to the number of representatives is greater for which of the two districts ?
(1) p1 > p2
(2) r2 > r1
OA=C
note the problem states that r1 and r1 are "numbers" yet the problem does not consider that these "numbers" could be zero in which case the answer would have been E as division by zero is non defined, but this is not considered in the explanation
i can see your complaint here. however, you should learn the following -- word problems are set up so that these "extraneous cases" DON'T have to be considered.
i.e., even if the case of 0 representatives isn't explicitly ruled out, you should not consider it.
in general, you should rule out cases that produce division by zero, even if the problem doesn't specifically bar those cases. the gmat has shown a very clear pattern of NOT writing problems that hinge on such exceptions.

the only exception occurs if the entire purpose of the problem concerns the fact that division by 0 is not ok.
for instance:
If x # y is defined as (y)/(x - y), then for which of the following values of y is (2 # y) NOT defined?
0
1
2
3
4
answer = 2
here, that's the case that produces division by zero, and division by zero is not ok -- but, this time, that's the whole purpose of the problem.
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

--

Pueden hacerle preguntas a Ron en castellano
Potete chiedere domande a Ron in italiano
On peut poser des questions à Ron en français
Voit esittää kysymyksiä Ron:lle myös suomeksi

--

Quand on se sent bien dans un vêtement, tout peut arriver. Un bon vêtement, c'est un passeport pour le bonheur.

Yves Saint-Laurent

--

Learn more about ron

GMAT/MBA Expert

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 3380
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 am
Thanked: 2256 times
Followed by:1535 members
GMAT Score:800

by lunarpower » Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:07 am
Consider problem26 of the diagnostic test.
what is the value of the integer p?
(1)Each of the integers 2, 3 and 5 is a factor of p
(2) Each of the integers 2, 5 and 7
OA=E, Explantion says these are factors of but it is NOT clear that these are the ONLY factors of p. (fair enough! )

However, I have encountered various problems where one option might read " the number X has 2 and 3 as factors" in which case the word "only" is not mentioned, yet we are to take that 2 and 3 are the only factors of x.
uh, no, that would just be wrong. "X has 2 and 3 as factors" does not suggest exclusivity, i.e., there is no indication that there aren't other factors.

were any of these problems OFFICIAL? i would bet not.
two reasons:
1) as mentioned above, that's a huge error, and
2) "X has 2 and 3 as factors" is sloppy / informal writing anyway. (the correct formal writing would be "2 and 3 are factors of X" or "X is a multiple of both 2 and 3", etc.)

i've noticed that a lot of posters here consistently submit third-rate, unofficial problems WITH NO SOURCE CITED.
this is one of the primary dangers of using such problems -- a lot of them (especially in sentence correction ... dear lord) are just bad. it'd be a lot better if people would start saying where the problems were from, so that we could blacklist sources that repeatedly provided bad problems.

Another example of this case:
how many 3 digit numbers from numbers 2,3,4,5 are possible in which 2 digits are same? In this problem in order to get the solution we solve only for numbers that have " 2 digits as same". My contention is that since the word "only" was not mentioned "we have to considered the possiblity of all 3 digits are same as well". Other contend that since "atleast" is not mentioned we are to stick to the possiblity when only 2 digits are same.
yeah, that's an ambiguous statement.

if this problem were on the official test (or on any other official materials), it would say one of the following:
1) at least 2 digits are the same
2) exactly 2 digits are the same

again ... was the problem official?
what was the SOURCE of the problem?

i want to emphasize, strongly, that if you use problems from unknown sources, you are doing so entirely at your own risk.
this goes especially for sentence correction (on which LOTS of unknown-source problems are flat-out incorrect), but applies all across the board.
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

--

Pueden hacerle preguntas a Ron en castellano
Potete chiedere domande a Ron in italiano
On peut poser des questions à Ron en français
Voit esittää kysymyksiä Ron:lle myös suomeksi

--

Quand on se sent bien dans un vêtement, tout peut arriver. Un bon vêtement, c'est un passeport pour le bonheur.

Yves Saint-Laurent

--

Learn more about ron

GMAT/MBA Expert

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 3380
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 am
Thanked: 2256 times
Followed by:1535 members
GMAT Score:800

by lunarpower » Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:11 am
Last and most surprising.

Question 161
Beginning in January of last year, Carl made deposits of $120 into his account on the 15th of each month for several consecutive months and then made withdrawals of $50 from the account on the 15th of each of the remaining months of last year. There were no other transactions in the account last year. If the closing balance of Carl's account for May of last year was $2,600, what was the range of the monthly closing balances of Carl's account last year?

(1) Last year the closing balance of Carl's account for April was less than $2,625.
(2) Last year the closing balance of Carl's account for June was less than $2,675.
OA=C

To rule out each statement individually,the O.G in the explanation of the quesiton takes the extreme case one in which the depositor has deposited only for one month and withdrawn for several months, and another where he deposits for several months but withdraws only in one month.
My question is, when the question clearly states that deposits have been for "several months"-plural how can the o.g cite the case of only one month-singular?


Your reply would help me take the quantum leap on my test.
Thanks![/quote]

i looked, and, yes, you're correct.
this is another case in which the OG answer key isn't the best thing in the world. (note that the problems don't really have these issues -- it's clear that gmac has their better writers creating the problems, and their not-so-good writers working on the answer key. hey, at least it isn't the other way around...)

so, yeah, that's a flawed answer key, at least for statement 2.
still, that answer changes for any number of months, so just consider the following instead:
* deposits in first 2 months, withdrawals in remaining 10 months
* deposits in first 3 months, withdrawals in remaining 9 months
you'll still get different values, so the statement will still be insufficient.

--

by the way:
yes, "several" should be more than one.
however, "each of the remaining months" CAN be zero or one -- if that's all that remains.
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

--

Pueden hacerle preguntas a Ron en castellano
Potete chiedere domande a Ron in italiano
On peut poser des questions à Ron en français
Voit esittää kysymyksiä Ron:lle myös suomeksi

--

Quand on se sent bien dans un vêtement, tout peut arriver. Un bon vêtement, c'est un passeport pour le bonheur.

Yves Saint-Laurent

--

Learn more about ron

Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
Posts: 132
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:08 am
Thanked: 3 times
Followed by:1 members

by clawhammer » Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:37 am
lunarpower wrote: note the problem states that r1 and r1 are "numbers" yet the problem does not consider that these "numbers" could be zero in which case the answer would have been E as division by zero is non defined, but this is not considered in the explanation

i can see your complaint here. however, you should learn the following -- word problems are set up so that these "extraneous cases" DON'T have to be considered.
i.e., even if the case of 0 representatives isn't explicitly ruled out, you should not consider it.
in general, you should rule out cases that produce division by zero, even if the problem doesn't specifically bar those cases. the gmat has shown a very clear pattern of NOT writing problems that hinge on such exceptions.

I also think GMAT explicitly declares that all considerations are for REAL NUMBERS. Therefore, dividing by zero doesn't need to be considered anyway. This shouldn't be a confusion here.

Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts
Posts: 75
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 5:04 pm
Thanked: 1 times
GMAT Score:760

by magnus opus » Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:48 am
thanks Ron! ur the best at what you do.

Ya the source of the two problems could be dubious, though my GMAT math instuctor gave them to me.

I think ur posts have helped me the most in my prepartion, especially the ones on S.C. you have answered the most esoteric and abstruse questions so easily. I do not know how others feel about this, but I certainly feel that the students should be allowed to repay the instructors on the website, in order to express their gratitude, for instructor's unconditional support. I surmise that you may be a very busy person,considering the 100's of pm (i did not deliberately put an "s" for the plural cuz then it would mean something else) that you get everday, requesting you to comment. However, in my experience I have found that you have replied to most of the posts. That is indeed commendable.
Thank you very very much.

- couple of more things, do you think having a "red bull" on the day of the test in the optional breaks might help improve performance.
- I have my test in twenty days I am planning to finish 1000's s.c in one day(then 1000 c,r the next day), without worrying about the answers, in the last ten days just to build a stamina for the marathon. do you think it would be beneficial?
-any other last minute strategies that you might suggest.
- Oh one more thing, any suggestion on how to boost concentration on the test and eliminate ironic processing (its a psychological phenomenon where I try to suppress other thoughts, and the thought of not thinking itself it thrashing in my head, so this sort of forms firewall in my head while m reading the R.c. forming a barrier between reading and simultaneous comprehension. I think its because this test matters lot to me.

Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts
Posts: 75
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 5:04 pm
Thanked: 1 times
GMAT Score:760

by magnus opus » Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:02 am
ALARM!!!

I just revisited the question,

the numbers were not given as I had stated, please confirm once and for all if the verdict remains the same.

2 prime numbers are the factors of X - ( so we accept that there might be other numbers as well) -fair enough

X has two factors- ( are we to conclude X has only two factors?)

One more thing-
If we are asked to find the total number of factors of X (any number)
do we consider the negative factors also??

Legendary Member
Posts: 768
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:46 am
Thanked: 21 times
Followed by:7 members

by GMATMadeEasy » Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:06 am
@magnus opus : From my experince , rather unfortunate one, do not try anything during the test day that you have not tried before. Red bull killed me and I had never tried it before during my preparation phase.

For each individual,I believe, rules are different, and sure someone might have have got good results after having red bull. But thnk
1 > It could be just corelation
2> that person might already be good in verbal or quant whatsoeever.
3> that person's body really reacts positively to tautine (this is major ingredient in energy drinks I guess)
4> The debrief sample on the site is far from representative of reality (think how many people appear for the exam and how many debriefs do we have)

GMAT/MBA Expert

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 3380
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 am
Thanked: 2256 times
Followed by:1535 members
GMAT Score:800

by lunarpower » Sun Oct 10, 2010 5:04 am
magnus opus wrote:ALARM!!!

I just revisited the question,

the numbers were not given as I had stated, please confirm once and for all if the verdict remains the same.

2 prime numbers are the factors of X - ( so we accept that there might be other numbers as well) -fair enough
yep

think about "these two kids, right here, are my children" --> i could have other children as well (though not necessarily).
X has two factors- ( are we to conclude X has only two factors?)
yep.

think about "i have two children" --> this means that you have two children, no more, no less.
One more thing-
If we are asked to find the total number of factors of X (any number)
do we consider the negative factors also??
the gmat will NEVER give you a problem on which you have to worry about "negative factors".
they'll usually be pretty thorough about mentioning each time that the factors are positive. if they don't, it'll be a problem on which this doesn't matter anyway (i.e., the result will turn out the same whether you consider the "negative factors" or not).
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

--

Pueden hacerle preguntas a Ron en castellano
Potete chiedere domande a Ron in italiano
On peut poser des questions à Ron en français
Voit esittää kysymyksiä Ron:lle myös suomeksi

--

Quand on se sent bien dans un vêtement, tout peut arriver. Un bon vêtement, c'est un passeport pour le bonheur.

Yves Saint-Laurent

--

Learn more about ron

Junior | Next Rank: 30 Posts
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:32 am

by mymisc » Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:03 am
Along this line, and comparing with DS 38 in OG12 (sorry, don't know how to quote just that part): I didn't feel confused on the 'number' thing in DS 38, but confused on DS 70 from the similar wondering. DS 70 is a little bit different from DS 38 regarding this 'number' sense, the problem says 'xxx persuaded n friends ....' and the problem asks for the value of "n".

So as an unknown in an equation, "n" ended up with two solutions: one is a positive int (which fits in the problem's constraint) but another one is zero. I know to throw away a negative solution in such problem, but hard to do so as n=0, cause you can say "xxx persuaded 0 friends". In this case, I think that OG treated the solution "0" as a negative one.

Experts, did you see consistency on such way of treating "0" in official GMAT problems? I guess that I just have to remember this scenario, right?

Thanks!

GMAT/MBA Expert

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 3380
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 am
Thanked: 2256 times
Followed by:1535 members
GMAT Score:800

by lunarpower » Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:09 am
mymisc wrote:Along this line, and comparing with DS 38 in OG12 (sorry, don't know how to quote just that part): I didn't feel confused on the 'number' thing in DS 38, but confused on DS 70 from the similar wondering. DS 70 is a little bit different from DS 38 regarding this 'number' sense, the problem says 'xxx persuaded n friends ....' and the problem asks for the value of "n".

So as an unknown in an equation, "n" ended up with two solutions: one is a positive int (which fits in the problem's constraint) but another one is zero. I know to throw away a negative solution in such problem, but hard to do so as n=0, cause you can say "xxx persuaded 0 friends". In this case, I think that OG treated the solution "0" as a negative one.
nope -- they (implicitly) rejected 0 because it doesn't work. try plugging 0 back into that equation, and see what you get -- the fraction 1/16 doesn't work anymore.
in particular, that solution requires that "0 is 1/16 of 0"; this statement is not true.
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

--

Pueden hacerle preguntas a Ron en castellano
Potete chiedere domande a Ron in italiano
On peut poser des questions à Ron en français
Voit esittää kysymyksiä Ron:lle myös suomeksi

--

Quand on se sent bien dans un vêtement, tout peut arriver. Un bon vêtement, c'est un passeport pour le bonheur.

Yves Saint-Laurent

--

Learn more about ron

Junior | Next Rank: 30 Posts
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:32 am

by mymisc » Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:55 pm
Ron,

I don't get it--0 IS 1/16 of 0, I think this is true (0 = 1/16*0). So why should we reject 0?

GMAT/MBA Expert

User avatar
GMAT Instructor
Posts: 3380
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 am
Thanked: 2256 times
Followed by:1535 members
GMAT Score:800

by lunarpower » Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:54 pm
mymisc wrote:Ron,

I don't get it--0 IS 1/16 of 0, I think this is true (0 = 1/16*0). So why should we reject 0?
basically, because 0 is not uniquely 1/16 of 0 -- if i asked you, "what fraction of 0 is 0?" you wouldn't say 1/16; you'd just give me a confused look.

--

in general:
i see where you're coming from here, ok -- but you've got to read this question as an example of the way the problems are written: basically, you should ignore these sorts of marginal examples.
in other words, when you are considering a WORD PROBLEM like this -- in the nightmare scenario in which you actually encounter this sort of problem when it counts -- go ahead and subject it to what courts would call a "reasonable person standard". in other words, ask yourself whether most knowledgeable people considering this word problem would think of n = 0 as
* a legitimate case worth considering, or
* a nitpicky mathematical trick that is valid from an extremely technical standpoint but is clearly outside the intended bounds of the problem.
if your theoretical "average informed person" would go with the latter -- as is the case in this problem -- then go ahead and ignore that case.

this goes especially for word problems.
in a pure number properties question, you should expect a certain degree of nitpicking with different types of numbers; for instance, if you are given the two statements |x| ≠ x and |x| = -x, then the only difference between those two statements is the inclusion or exclusion of x = 0 -- and that would be the point of the problem in that case, since absolute value problems are generally designed to highlight differences between signs (+, -, 0).
however, in word problems, you've got to subject yourself to discerning a reasonable person's standard of interpretation. for instance, if a problem involves the "closing balance" of a bank account for each month, then you can go ahead and assume that the closing balance is registered at the end of the month (not on some random date). similarly, if someone invites n friends to an event in the problem, then you can assume that the vacuous cases (e.g. n = 0) don't have to be considered.

in fact, there is a non-negligible chance that this might even be part of the agenda of this test, given that the test is designed primarily for admission to management school -- the test may even be trying to filter, to a certain extent, for people's ability to distinguish between what should be (with wide agreement) considered a marginal case and what should be considered important.
if that is indeed the case, note that the structure of the actual exam would not permit an overly controversial question to get through; remember that every question goes through an experimental stage before it is added for credit, and that the questions will be rejected if too many people at the top levels miss them. therefore, if you see a question like this on the real test, it will definitely be a question on which agreement among the test-taking population will be nearly universal -- so go ahead and think about where that agreement would be.
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

--

Pueden hacerle preguntas a Ron en castellano
Potete chiedere domande a Ron in italiano
On peut poser des questions à Ron en français
Voit esittää kysymyksiä Ron:lle myös suomeksi

--

Quand on se sent bien dans un vêtement, tout peut arriver. Un bon vêtement, c'est un passeport pour le bonheur.

Yves Saint-Laurent

--

Learn more about ron

• Page 1 of 1