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bblast: Legendary Member; Posts: 1077; Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 1:44 amFollowed by: 33 members; Thanked: 118 times; GMAT Score:710

by bblast » Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:44 pm

towerSpider wrote:Lets make it into simple analogy for understanding.

(1)I would prefer to love Juli, rather than Sonia. (i think this one is wrong because rather than is used for preferences but here, we have two nouns : Juli, and sonia. Though ". . . .juli, not sonia. . ." will be correct. Other reason is that in this situation you are loving both. What if you have preference for loving juli over killing juli. in such cases you just can not skip verb because verbs are different.)

(2)I would prefer to love Juli, rather than love Sonia.

(3)I would prefer to love Juli, rather that to love Sonia.

Now my question is why choose (3) over (2) even though (2) is more concise?

always remember to keep rather than constructions parrallel, hence choose 3

Cheers !!

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mundasingh123: Legendary Member; Posts: 2330; Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:14 amFollowed by: 26 members; Thanked: 56 times

by mundasingh123 » Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:52 am

Target2009 wrote:
mundasingh123 wrote:
Target2009 wrote:
mundasingh123 wrote:
highflier_2000 wrote:
hope this helps.
Thanks for replying.In B ,a situation that determined is an appositive that that modifies a noun.Isnt it modifying the whole sentence
Concrete : is a description use to describe items/people/things that you can actually detect with your sences. Example : things you can touch, hear, hold on you hand, feel it , smell it etc.
Abstract: is a description use to describe items / ideas that you can not actually detect with your sences. Example : relationship, situation etc.

Hope this will clear your doubt.

Reference:
1. Thursdays With Ron - September 23 2010 : - https://vimeo.com/15391844
2. Stacey Koprince : https://www.beatthegmat.com/mba/2010/06/ ... -modifiers
Then why do we need Absolute Phrases if appositives can be used tomodify the whole sentence

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Target2009: Legendary Member; Posts: 574; Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:47 pmFollowed by: 5 members; Location: USA; Thanked: 29 times

by Target2009 » Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:59 am

mundasingh123 wrote:
Target2009 wrote:
mundasingh123 wrote:
Target2009 wrote:
mundasingh123 wrote:
highflier_2000 wrote:
hope this helps.
Thanks for replying.In B ,a situation that determined is an appositive that that modifies a noun.Isnt it modifying the whole sentence
Concrete : is a description use to describe items/people/things that you can actually detect with your sences. Example : things you can touch, hear, hold on you hand, feel it , smell it etc.
Abstract: is a description use to describe items / ideas that you can not actually detect with your sences. Example : relationship, situation etc.

Hope this will clear your doubt.

Reference:
1. Thursdays With Ron - September 23 2010 : - https://vimeo.com/15391844
2. Stacey Koprince : https://www.beatthegmat.com/mba/2010/06/ ... -modifiers
Then why do we need Absolute Phrases if appositives can be used tomodify the whole sentence
Refer : https://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/app ... 11622.html
This will help you to clear your doubt.

Regards
Abhishek
------------------------------
MasterGmat Student

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mundasingh123: Legendary Member; Posts: 2330; Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:14 amFollowed by: 26 members; Thanked: 56 times

by mundasingh123 » Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:26 am

Target2009 wrote:
mundasingh123 wrote:
Target2009 wrote:
mundasingh123 wrote:
Target2009 wrote:
mundasingh123 wrote:
highflier_2000 wrote:
hope this helps.
Thanks for replying.In B ,a situation that determined is an appositive that that modifies a noun.Isnt it modifying the whole sentence
Concrete : is a description use to describe items/people/things that you can actually detect with your sences. Example : things you can touch, hear, hold on you hand, feel it , smell it etc.
Abstract: is a description use to describe items / ideas that you can not actually detect with your sences. Example : relationship, situation etc.

Hope this will clear your doubt.

Reference:
1. Thursdays With Ron - September 23 2010 : - https://vimeo.com/15391844
2. Stacey Koprince : https://www.beatthegmat.com/mba/2010/06/ ... -modifiers
Then why do we need Absolute Phrases if appositives can be used tomodify the whole sentence
Refer : https://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/app ... 11622.html
This will help you to clear your doubt.
Actually i have already been thru this post and this why i raised my doubts in this thread

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Target2009: Legendary Member; Posts: 574; Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:47 pmFollowed by: 5 members; Location: USA; Thanked: 29 times

by Target2009 » Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:23 am

mundasingh123 wrote:
Target2009 wrote:
Refer : https://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/app ... 11622.html
This will help you to clear your doubt.
Actually i have already been thru this post and this why i raised my doubts in this thread

As i Understand :
Appositive can act as synonyms for what it modifies. i.e. If you replace modified noun/clause with appositives , sentence will still convey same meaning.

Original : The coach, an old classmate of mine, was not pleased.
Replaced : An old classmate of mine was not pleased. <-- Still holds good

Absolute : An absolute phrase often includes a noun or pronoun, a participle, and any modifiers, objects or complements of the phrase. Usually set off by commas, it modifies an entire sentence rather than a specific word.

Original : Guillermo, his arm in pain, Guillermo strode out of the building.
Replaced: His arm in pain, Guillermo strode out of the building. <-- Doesn't make sense.

I think we can learn more about difference between Absolute and appositive. Lets PM Ron / Staecy / other dear experts.

Regards
Abhishek
------------------------------
MasterGmat Student

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mundasingh123: Legendary Member; Posts: 2330; Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:14 amFollowed by: 26 members; Thanked: 56 times

by mundasingh123 » Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:57 am

Hi Target My Doubt is something else.U could be Correct as per the OA for this particular SC.But when it comes to dissecting this SC and understanding the role played by the different elements that constitute the SC,I have the following doubt that remain in place evn after i went thru the Links that You posted on this Thread
the appositive "a situation that determined " needs a noun or a noun phrase to modify but i see no noun or noun phrase.Therefore an Absolute Phrase is what we need here if we want to modify the Sentence and the "a situation .." is an Appositive

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lunarpower: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 3380; Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 amFollowed by: 1535 members; Thanked: 2256 times; GMAT Score:800

by lunarpower » Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:34 pm

highflier_2000 wrote:
Just looking at the sentence to establish the parallel construction we need 'to' eliminates (C), (D) and (E)

was to move a limited amount of scarce goods to San Francisco as quickly as possible, rather than to

very incorrect.
for proof, consult problem #39 in the second edition OG verbal supplement, in which this exact construction is used precisely in the way you are claiming is incorrect. (if you have the first edition, i think it's #40.)

X decided to do #1 rather than to do #2
X decided to do #1 rather than do #2
X decided to do #1 rather than #2
all correct.

for more on this sort of issue with parallelism, watch the MAY 13 session at
https://www.manhattangmat.com/thursdays-with-ron.cfm
pay particular attention to the examples involving "grass" and "trees", and the rationale for why those examples are parallel or not parallel.

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lunarpower: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 3380; Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 amFollowed by: 1535 members; Thanked: 2256 times; GMAT Score:800

by lunarpower » Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:40 pm

Target2009 wrote:Absolute : An absolute phrase often includes a noun or pronoun, a participle, and any modifiers, objects or complements of the phrase. Usually set off by commas, it modifies an entire sentence rather than a specific word.

Original : Guillermo, his arm in pain, Guillermo strode out of the building.
Replaced: His arm in pain, Guillermo strode out of the building. <-- Doesn't make sense.

what "doesn't make sense" about this construction? i understand that it's a bit unusual-looking, but its meaning should be quite clear.
here's another example of an absolute-phrase construction:
joseph walked out of the stadium, his head held high with pride.

whenever you encounter structures like this, which are new to you, you should do the following:
1) ACCEPT that the structure is correct
it's rather pointless to question the structure, or to try to cast doubt on its legitimacy, if it is accepted as correct. i understand that many constructions appear awkward or strange at first, but, what's correct is correct.
2) LEARN how to use the structure
it appears you've done this here -- you've given a fairly accurate description of how absolute phrases work.

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Target2009: Legendary Member; Posts: 574; Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:47 pmFollowed by: 5 members; Location: USA; Thanked: 29 times

by Target2009 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:26 pm

lunarpower wrote: what "doesn't make sense" about this construction? i understand that it's a bit unusual-looking, but its meaning should be quite clear.
here's another example of an absolute-phrase construction:
joseph walked out of the stadium, his head held high with pride.

whenever you encounter structures like this, which are new to you, you should do the following:
1) ACCEPT that the structure is correct
it's rather pointless to question the structure, or to try to cast doubt on its legitimacy, if it is accepted as correct. i understand that many constructions appear awkward or strange at first, but, what's correct is correct.
2) LEARN how to use the structure
it appears you've done this here -- you've given a fairly accurate description of how absolute phrases work.

Hi Ron,

Thanks for the details. One small query ,

An "abstract appositive phrase" & "absolute phrase" each can be a "noun phrase" and each can modify whole preceding clause. How do we understand a given phrase is appositive or absolute??

example : Last night our air conditioner broke, an event that caused great consternation.

I understand "an event " as absolute appositive , hence "an event that caused great consternation" as a appositive phrase. This sentence was very similar to the example given in study hall.

"I went to bar with Mr. Smith, an outing that was far more fun than staying at work. "

But MGMAT SC guide ( page no 99 , explanation of que 14) consider above as "absolute phrase".

MGMAT SC :
14. Last night our air conditioner broke, which caused great consternation.
Explanation: Which caused great consternation: INCORRECT. This modifier is dangling, since the sentence contains no noun correctly modified by the clause which caused great consternation. The author's intent is to comment on the event (the breakdown of the air conditioner). But the main clause does not name the event with a noun. Therefore, we need to change the modifier to a verb modifier, either a participle (causing ... ) or an absolute phrase (an event that caused ... ).

Regards
Abhishek
------------------------------
MasterGmat Student

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mundasingh123: Legendary Member; Posts: 2330; Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:14 amFollowed by: 26 members; Thanked: 56 times

by mundasingh123 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:08 pm

Last night our air conditioner broke, an event that caused great consternation
Hi target2009,U found the above sentence in Ron's Class .Are u sure "an event that caused great consternation" is an appositive that can modify the whole clause. Just confirming

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Target2009: Legendary Member; Posts: 574; Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:47 pmFollowed by: 5 members; Location: USA; Thanked: 29 times

by Target2009 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:59 pm

mundasingh123 wrote:Last night our air conditioner broke, an event that caused great consternation
Hi target2009,U found the above sentence in Ron's Class .Are u sure "an event that caused great consternation" is an appositive that can modify the whole clause. Just confirming

Study hall Sentence : I went to bar with Mr. Smith, an outing that was far more fun than staying at work.
MGMAT-SC sentence : Last night our air conditioner broke, an event that caused great consternation.

The study hall one is appositive ( abstract). MGMAT one looks to have similar structure as "event" is also abstract here. This is why I classify it as appositive whereas guide says its absolute phrase.

And thats my query/ doubt is. What are the main identifiers to distinguish these two phrases ( absolute / appositive) ?

Hope I answered your question.

Regards
Abhishek
------------------------------
MasterGmat Student

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lunarpower: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 3380; Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 amFollowed by: 1535 members; Thanked: 2256 times; GMAT Score:800

by lunarpower » Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:29 am

Target2009 wrote:An "abstract appositive phrase" & "absolute phrase" each can be a "noun phrase" and each can modify whole preceding clause. How do we understand a given phrase is appositive or absolute??

don't forget, names don't really matter -- all that matters is that you have a functional knowledge of the structures in question.

in other words, it really doesn't matter whether you call them "absolute phrases", "appositives", or even "little pink tigers", as long as you know how they work.

in fact, you should not be trying to name these things as you solve the problems; that's a detour that you don't have to take. instead, you should be able to react with "if i see something that looks like ______, then it should modify ____" -- no reason to name anything.

analogy:
let's say that you're driving a car, and you approach a red light.
it doesn't really matter whether you know that a red light is called a "red light", as long as you know to STOP for it!
in other words, even if you think the red light is called a "black tiger", the only thing that is important is that you stop for it. it makes no difference at all whether you know the correct name, unless you are trying to communicate ideas to someone else.

example : Last night our air conditioner broke, an event that caused great consternation.

I understand "an event " as absolute appositive , hence "an event that caused great consternation" as a appositive phrase. This sentence was very similar to the example given in study hall.

yeah, that's an appositive. (i don't think there is anything called an "absolute appositive".)
but, again, it doesn't matter, as long as you know how to use the modifier correctly.

But MGMAT SC guide ( page no 99 , explanation of que 14) consider above as "absolute phrase".

yeah, the guide is wrong about that. we are going to fix that in the next edition -- sorry about that.

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mundasingh123: Legendary Member; Posts: 2330; Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:14 amFollowed by: 26 members; Thanked: 56 times

by mundasingh123 » Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:16 am

Hi Ron.
example : Last night our air conditioner broke, an event that caused great consternation.

an event that caused ... is an appositive here
Here it seems be modifying the entire clause "Last night our air conditioner broke".But doesnt an absolute Phrase do the same thing ?
I always used this point to differentiate between the 2.
An appositive only modifies a noun
An absolute phrase modifies a phrase or the sentence.
But as your sentence shows an appositive can also modify the entire sentence so how do i find out whether something is appositive or absolute phrase.
Finding this is important for me so that i can make out whether an appostive has been used .If yes then how has it been used.Whether an absolute phrase has been used .If yes then how has it been used

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lunarpower: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 3380; Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 amFollowed by: 1535 members; Thanked: 2256 times; GMAT Score:800

by lunarpower » Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:02 pm

mundasingh123 wrote:Hi Ron.
example : Last night our air conditioner broke, an event that caused great consternation.

an event that caused ... is an appositive here
Here it seems be modifying the entire clause "Last night our air conditioner broke".But doesnt an absolute Phrase do the same thing ?
I always used this point to differentiate between the 2.
An appositive only modifies a noun
An absolute phrase modifies a phrase or the sentence.

nah, appositives can modify either a noun or an entire clause.
watch the last half-hour or so of the SEPTEMBER 23 study hall at this link:
https://www.manhattangmat.com/thursdays-with-ron.cfm

for examples, see, e.g., OG12 #83 (in which the appositive modifies the entire clause) and OG12 #103 (in which it modifies just the preceding noun).

But as your sentence shows an appositive can also modify the entire sentence so how do i find out whether something is appositive or absolute phrase.
Finding this is important for me so that i can make out whether an appostive has been used .If yes then how has it been used.Whether an absolute phrase has been used .If yes then how has it been used

well, the easiest way to differentiate is the following:
* the absolute phrases that you'll see on the GMAT, generally, start with possessives.
e.g.
james walked out of the stadium, his head held high with pride.

* appositives generally don't start with possessives.

in the larger english language there are exceptions to both of these statements -- i.e., there are absolute phrases without possessives (linda ran toward me, a smile breaking out on her face) and appositives with them (i had dinner with frank, an old friend, and gail, his wife of 20 years) -- but i don't recall ever seeing any of those exceptional constructions on the test.

in any case, as you've seen, both of these constructions are pretty remarkably flexible, so it's much more important just to be familiar with their appearance than to be able to name them.

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mundasingh123: Legendary Member; Posts: 2330; Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:14 amFollowed by: 26 members; Thanked: 56 times

by mundasingh123 » Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:27 am

Thanks Ron,I do undertsnd the difference . Now thanks for the ink,I will go thru that as well

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