Tense confusion.....:(

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Tense confusion.....:(

by voodoo_child » Sat May 28, 2011 11:30 am
I didn't feel like going to the party, but later I was sorry to miss it.
OR
I didn't feel like going to the party, but later I was sorry to have missed it.
OR
I didn't feel like going to the party, but later I was sorry that I missed it.
OR
I didn't feel like going to the party, but later I was sorry that I have missed it.


Any thoughts which one of the above is correct ?

My ear says (b) (preferable) or (c)...not sure.....

Thanks
Voodoo...
Source: — Sentence Correction |

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by maihuna » Sat May 28, 2011 11:42 am
bhodu but where is the party :)
Charged up again to beat the beast :)

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by sameerballani » Sun May 29, 2011 3:29 am
voodoo_child wrote:I didn't feel like going to the party, but later I was sorry to miss it.
OR
I didn't feel like going to the party, but later I was sorry to have missed it.
OR
I didn't feel like going to the party, but later I was sorry that I missed it.
OR
I didn't feel like going to the party, but later I was sorry that I have missed it.


Any thoughts which one of the above is correct ?

My ear says (b) (preferable) or (c)...not sure.....

Thanks
Voodoo...
I feel C is correct.

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by Ashley@VeritasPrep » Sun May 29, 2011 6:26 am
Hi all,

I would indeed go for (B) here -- "sorry to have missed it." I guess I get to this choice by thinking of how I'd word the sentence without an infinitive, and in that case, I'd say "later I was sorry that I had missed it." I'd want the past perfect "had missed," because the missing-the-party took place before the being-sorry, and the being-sorry is already in the simple past ("was sorry").

So then, I'd know I wanted a perfect tense for the last part of the sentence. When a perfect tense -- any perfect tense (past perfect, present perfect, or future perfect) morphs into an infinitive, you lose the past or present or future aspect of it but retain the indicator of the perfect via "have."

So "to have missed it" seems to me to work well here.

Best,
Ashley Newman-Owens
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by voodoo_child » Sun May 29, 2011 6:40 am
Thanks Ashley! The first paragraph makes sense. Can you please elaborate on the second paragraph i.e."So then, I'd know I wanted a perfect tense for the last part of the sentence. When a perfect tense -- any perfect tense (past perfect, present perfect, or future perfect) morphs into an infinitive, you lose the past or present or future aspect of it but retain the indicator of the perfect via "have." "
Ashley@VeritasPrep wrote:Hi all,

So then, I'd know I wanted a perfect tense for the last part of the sentence. When a perfect tense -- any perfect tense (past perfect, present perfect, or future perfect) morphs into an infinitive, you lose the past or present or future aspect of it but retain the indicator of the perfect via "have."

So "to have missed it" seems to me to work well here.

Best,
Thanks
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by sameerballani » Sun May 29, 2011 7:14 am
voodoo_child wrote:Thanks Ashley! The first paragraph makes sense. Can you please elaborate on the second paragraph i.e."So then, I'd know I wanted a perfect tense for the last part of the sentence. When a perfect tense -- any perfect tense (past perfect, present perfect, or future perfect) morphs into an infinitive, you lose the past or present or future aspect of it but retain the indicator of the perfect via "have." "
Ashley@VeritasPrep wrote:Hi all,

So then, I'd know I wanted a perfect tense for the last part of the sentence. When a perfect tense -- any perfect tense (past perfect, present perfect, or future perfect) morphs into an infinitive, you lose the past or present or future aspect of it but retain the indicator of the perfect via "have."

So "to have missed it" seems to me to work well here.

Best,
Thanks
Voodoo
In respect to this question, I understand that the essence of past is lost, but the essence of perfect(the task in finished the past) is retained.

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by sameerballani » Sun May 29, 2011 7:17 am
Ashley@VeritasPrep wrote:Hi all,

I would indeed go for (B) here -- "sorry to have missed it." I guess I get to this choice by thinking of how I'd word the sentence without an infinitive, and in that case, I'd say "later I was sorry that I had missed it." I'd want the past perfect "had missed," because the missing-the-party took place before the being-sorry, and the being-sorry is already in the simple past ("was sorry").

So then, I'd know I wanted a perfect tense for the last part of the sentence. When a perfect tense -- any perfect tense (past perfect, present perfect, or future perfect) morphs into an infinitive, you lose the past or present or future aspect of it but retain the indicator of the perfect via "have."

So "to have missed it" seems to me to work well here.

Best,
thanks for your reply. Could you please elaborate more. Also can you also tell why other options are wrong. And what role does the infinitive TO HAVE plays?

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by Ashley@VeritasPrep » Sun May 29, 2011 10:16 pm
Sure! Here is elaboration:

Think about starting from any of these sentences, and check out the image:

I didn't feel like going to the party, but later I was sorry that I had missed it.
I didn't feel like going to the party, but now I am sorry that I have missed it.
I didn't feel like going to the party, but soon I will be sorry that I will have missed it.


Image

Now, I could leave the sentence as any of those, so if any of those were options, they'd be fine options. But of course, they're not. It seems to me that whenever you have a predicate adjective (an adjective following a linking verb -- in this case, "sorry") that introduces a "that"-clause, you have the option of changing the "that"-clause to an infinitive *if you want to*, as in "I am glad that I am here" <---> "I am glad to be here." But if you're transitioning from a perfect-tense "that"-clause, you need to retain the perfect tense. It's impossible to retain the specificity of past perfect vs. present perfect vs. future perfect, because by changing into the infinitive we lose the ability to conjugate "have" -- so if we go infinitive, we just make do with a marker of perfect and look to the main verb in the sentence to know specifically whether we're implying past perfect or present perfect or future perfect.

[This same rule holds if you ever transition a perfect tense into a perfect participle... no way to distinguish between past perfect and present perfect and future perfect in participles either. So I could say any of the following:

Having eaten a whole pie, she had a terrible stomachache.
Having eaten a whole pie, she has a terrible stomachache.
Having eaten a whole pie, she will have a terrible stomachache.


And I'd just look at the second part of the sentence to know more specifically which perfect tense was implied by the first part.]

As to why the other answers are wrong:

(A) doesn't work because it lacks any perfect tense marker.
(C) also lacks any perfect tense marker.
(D) includes a perfect tense marker, but it pairs present perfect ("have missed") with a simple past verb ("was sorry"), when what it should be doing is pairing past perfect ("had missed") with that simple past. If it did that, this answer would be as good as (B).

Did I cover it all there?!
Ashley Newman-Owens
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by sameerballani » Sun May 29, 2011 11:17 pm
Ashley.

Awesome Post !!

Thanks

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by voodoo_child » Mon May 30, 2011 6:49 am
Ashley@VeritasPrep wrote:Sure! Here is elaboration:

Think about starting from any of these sentences, and check out the image:

I didn't feel like going to the party, but later I was sorry that I had missed it.
I didn't feel like going to the party, but now I am sorry that I have missed it.
I didn't feel like going to the party, but soon I will be sorry that I will have missed it.


Image

Now, I could leave the sentence as any of those, so if any of those were options, they'd be fine options. But of course, they're not. It seems to me that whenever you have a predicate adjective (an adjective following a linking verb -- in this case, "sorry") that introduces a "that"-clause, you have the option of changing the "that"-clause to an infinitive *if you want to*, as in "I am glad that I am here" <---> "I am glad to be here." But if you're transitioning from a perfect-tense "that"-clause, you need to retain the perfect tense. It's impossible to retain the specificity of past perfect vs. present perfect vs. future perfect, because by changing into the infinitive we lose the ability to conjugate "have" -- so if we go infinitive, we just make do with a marker of perfect and look to the main verb in the sentence to know specifically whether we're implying past perfect or present perfect or future perfect.

[This same rule holds if you ever transition a perfect tense into a perfect participle... no way to distinguish between past perfect and present perfect and future perfect in participles either. So I could say any of the following:

Having eaten a whole pie, she had a terrible stomachache.
Having eaten a whole pie, she has a terrible stomachache.
Having eaten a whole pie, she will have a terrible stomachache.


And I'd just look at the second part of the sentence to know more specifically which perfect tense was implied by the first part.]

As to why the other answers are wrong:

(A) doesn't work because it lacks any perfect tense marker.
(C) also lacks any perfect tense marker.
(D) includes a perfect tense marker, but it pairs present perfect ("have missed") with a simple past verb ("was sorry"), when what it should be doing is pairing past perfect ("had missed") with that simple past. If it did that, this answer would be as good as (B).

Did I cover it all there?!
Thanks Ashley! You are great!

-Voodoo

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by iongmat » Mon May 30, 2011 7:51 am
Ashley@VeritasPrep wrote: [This same rule holds if you ever transition a perfect tense into a perfect participle... no way to distinguish between past perfect and present perfect and future perfect in participles either. So I could say any of the following:

Having eaten a whole pie, she had a terrible stomachache.
Having eaten a whole pie, she has a terrible stomachache.
Having eaten a whole pie, she will have a terrible stomachache.
Hi Ashley, as per my understanding, the examples you have mentioned here do not use has/had as "Perfect tenses", but as "main verbs" in these sentences.

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by Ashley@VeritasPrep » Mon May 30, 2011 9:30 am
Ooh, I see how this may have been confusing as I phrased it. You're exactly right, the "had," the "has" and the "will have" of "she [...] a terrible stomachache" are all just main verbs. What I meant was that underlyingly, the participles in the beginnings of the sentences are all in different perfect tenses, as though the sentences has started off as
She had a terrible stomachache because she had eaten a whole pie.
She has a terrible stomachache because she has eaten a whole pie.
She will have a terrible stomachache because she will have eaten a whole pie.
If you choose instead to translate those perfect tense verbs (that start off in the end of the sentence) into perfect participles that show up at the beginning of the sentence, all three of them -- the past perfect had eaten, the present perfect has eaten, and the future perfect will have eaten -- wind up identical as "having eaten."

Thanks for pointing this out! Sorry about the confusion and hope this clears it up.
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by voodoo_child » Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:51 am
Hey Ashley,
Can you please help me to understand this ?

Arlene wandered aimlessly for hours, forgetting to have written down Joline's address.

forgetting to have written
having forgotten to write
forgetting to write
having forgotten to have written
forgetfully writing

OA - B

My Analysis -
a) has "comma +ing form" => forgetting modifies "wandering" -> something that tells me that "forgetting" follows "wandering". ...(i)
Secondly, However, the author then changes the tense to "to have written" = present perfect. =mismatch.....(ii)
c) = a's (i)
e) changes the meaning and is nonsensical. It implies that "writing" followed "wandered".

between b) and d) my brain exploded (read:aircraft) in the air :( However, I will try my best to land safely. Please let me know whether I landed on water or on runway! :D

D) having forgotten = present perfect tense ; to have written - another present perfect tense - not correct because we dont need two perfects.
b) remains and wins.
...as per (i)..having forgotten = present perfect; okay.
to write down = infinitive = follows the same tense as present perfect.

Please let me know your expert thoughts :)

Thanks
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by sameerballani » Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:40 am
voodoo_child wrote:Hey Ashley,
Can you please help me to understand this ?

Arlene wandered aimlessly for hours, forgetting to have written down Joline's address.

forgetting to have written
having forgotten to write
forgetting to write
having forgotten to have written
forgetfully writing

OA - B

My Analysis -
a) has "comma +ing form" => forgetting modifies "wandering" -> something that tells me that "forgetting" follows "wandering". ...(i)
Secondly, However, the author then changes the tense to "to have written" = present perfect. =mismatch.....(ii)
c) = a's (i)
e) changes the meaning and is nonsensical. It implies that "writing" followed "wandered".

between b) and d) my brain exploded (read:aircraft) in the air :( However, I will try my best to land safely. Please let me know whether I landed on water or on runway! :D

D) having forgotten = present perfect tense ; to have written - another present perfect tense - not correct because we dont need two perfects.
b) remains and wins.
...as per (i)..having forgotten = present perfect; okay.
to write down = infinitive = follows the same tense as present perfect.

Please let me know your expert thoughts :)

Thanks
Voodoo
I will add my two cents -
This question tests not only tenses but also modifiers.
We need to pick an option that modifies Arlene. and starts with -ing so that is shows that arlene is the doer of the action.
So this eliminates option E

Ok now we have a job/purpose/intention ie. TO WRITE. and i feel we need to use TO WRITE instead of TO HAVE WRITTEN.
1) Have written shows that either the action or its effect is still present. However in this case that action is completed(action = forget TO WRITE in the past)
So now here, it refers to a completed action(forgot to write), which occured in the past[therefore forgotten to write] of the past action(Wandered). And initially we need HAVING, so modifier is
Having forgotten to write
Who forgot to write ? Arlene[being modified]

I hope i have not confused you more.
Expert comments are still required for better clarity

Thanks

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by Ashley@VeritasPrep » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:14 pm
voodoo_child wrote:Hey Ashley,
Can you please help me to understand this ?

Arlene wandered aimlessly for hours, forgetting to have written down Joline's address.

forgetting to have written
having forgotten to write
forgetting to write
having forgotten to have written
forgetfully writing

OA - B

My Analysis -
a) has "comma +ing form" => forgetting modifies "wandering" -> something that tells me that "forgetting" follows "wandering". ...(i)
Secondly, However, the author then changes the tense to "to have written" = present perfect. =mismatch.....(ii)
c) = a's (i)
e) changes the meaning and is nonsensical. It implies that "writing" followed "wandered".

between b) and d) my brain exploded (read:aircraft) in the air :( However, I will try my best to land safely. Please let me know whether I landed on water or on runway! :D

D) having forgotten = present perfect tense ; to have written - another present perfect tense - not correct because we dont need two perfects.
b) remains and wins.
...as per (i)..having forgotten = present perfect; okay.
to write down = infinitive = follows the same tense as present perfect.

Please let me know your expert thoughts :)

Thanks
Voodoo
Good analyses, both of you!

So, in summary, and to streamline a bit:

Arlene wandered for hours, during which time she was either (A/C) forgetting to do something, (B/D) having forgotten to do something, or (E) writing something. Well, we know she was not continually writing something the whole time she was wandering, so (E) is out. Now we ask whether she was continually forgetting to do something the whole time she was wandering (i.e. was the forgetting contemporaneous with the wandering)... and the answer is no; the forgetting took place BEFORE the wandering even started. So (A) and (C) are out. From there we're down to (B) and (D) and you're exactly right, Voodoo, that we don't need TWO perfect tenses, so (B) it is.

Remember that (as discussed in posts above) tense gets obscured when we use -ing participles, but to tell what tense is underlyingly being expressed, you can swing the idea expressed by the participial phrase around to the end of the sentence (inserting a "because" or some such word before it) and see what tense it winds up needing to be in.

For instance:

(e.g., story of what happened to you yesterday) Having lost my footing, I fell on the ice.
(e.g., story of what happens to you all the time) Having lost my footing, I fall on the ice.
(e.g., description of what you fear will happen to you tomorrow night) Having lost my footing, I will fall on the ice.

These are all acceptable sentences, and clearly they all begin identically with a perfect participle. To investigate the underlying tense that is tacitly expressed by the participial phrases, we can manipulate the sentence orders:

I fell on the ice because I HAD LOST my footing. (Must be HAD LOST (past perfect) to place the loss of footing prior in time to simple past "fell.")
I fall on the ice because I HAVE LOST my footing. (Must be HAVE LOST (present perfect) to place the loss of footing prior in time to simple present "fall.")
I will fall on the ice because I WILL HAVE LOST my footing. (Must be WILL HAVE LOST (future perfect) to place the loss of footing prior in time to simple future "will fall.")

One more method: in our sentence about Arlene and Joline, we can perform related "sentence surgery" to determine for sure whether we want a perfect participle or a simple participle. If we made this a "because" sentence, how would we phrase it? "Arlene wandered aimlessly for hours because she..."? Well, we would complete that like this: "...because she had forgotten to write down Joline's address." Anything else you try to complete it with won't work out, e.g. "Arlene wandered for hours because she forgot to--"--nope, the forgetting took place before the wandering, so we need to indicate that... or "Arlene wandered aimlessly for hours because she had forgotten to have written--"--nope, we just want a regular simple infinitive "to write." So, once you've settled on "because she had forgotten to write...," when it comes to transforming that into a participial phrase to comply with the answer choices, you know you want to keep a marker of the perfect aspect with "forgotten" and no such marker with "to write." So again, you land (safely :)) at (B).
Ashley Newman-Owens
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Veritas Prep

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