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Ellipses confirmation

by vikram4689 » Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:31 pm
Are the following sentences equal, i think 2nd one is awkward,as it lacks ||ism, but is NOT incorrect
a)Ann has fewer coins than Bob has
b)Ann has fewer coins than has Bob

Does c means same as a), I think C is altogether INCORRECT because it does not make sense.
c)Ann has fewer coins than those of Bob
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by Ashley@VeritasPrep » Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:03 am
Yes, (A) and (B) are equivalent and (C) is wrong because of faulty parallelism. Another thing to throw into the mix -- we'll call these (D) and (E) --

(D) Ann has fewer coins than Bob does
(E) Ann has fewer coins than does Bob

These two are also both fine, and (E) is in fact a very common structure. Many people would consider (E) the "best" way to write the sentence stylistically speaking, though again, all except (C) are fine grammatically.
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by GMATMadeEasy » Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:36 pm
Ashley, Could you suggest how to explain usage of did in second part of correct answer choice A. This is GMATPrep question.


Since 1990 the global economy has grown more than it did during the 10000 years from the beginning of agriculture to 1950.
A. Since 1990 the global economy has grown more than it did during the 10000 years from the beginning of agriculture
B. Since 1990 the growth of global economy has been more than that during 10000 years, from when agriculture began
C. The growth of the global economy since 1990 exceeds that which had been for 10000 years from the beginning of agriculture.
D. The growth of the global economy since 1990 exceeds what it has been for 10000 years, from when agriculture began
E. The growth of the global economy since 1990 exceeds what it did for the 10000 years from the beginning of agriculture.

I have issue understanding A how come "the global economy has grown" and "it did" can be used ? it should be "it did grow ". If first part had a verb as do grow, or grow/grows, it could be okay.

Could you explain please, looks, there is something wrong in my way here.
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by sameerballani » Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:48 pm
My 2 cents:
the structure is: X more than Y
X: Since 1990 the global economy has grown
Y: it[global economy] did[grown] during the 10000 years from the beginning of agriculture to 1950.

The blue part in both the sentence shows the time when its growth is being compared and we are comparing the growth during 2 periods
GMATMadeEasy wrote:Ashley, Could you suggest how to explain usage of did in second part of correct answer choice A. This is GMATPrep question.


Since 1990 the global economy has grown more than it did during the 10000 years from the beginning of agriculture to 1950.
A. Since 1990 the global economy has grown more than it did during the 10000 years from the beginning of agriculture
B. Since 1990 the growth of global economy has been more than that during 10000 years, from when agriculture began
C. The growth of the global economy since 1990 exceeds that which had been for 10000 years from the beginning of agriculture.
D. The growth of the global economy since 1990 exceeds what it has been for 10000 years, from when agriculture began
E. The growth of the global economy since 1990 exceeds what it did for the 10000 years from the beginning of agriculture.

I have issue understanding A how come "the global economy has grown" and "it did" can be used ? it should be "it did grow ". If first part had a verb as do grow, or grow/grows, it could be okay.

I don't think it did grow is wrong, but grow can be avoided here without any change in the meaning. So, why not make it more short and concise.

Could you explain please, looks, there is something wrong in my way here.
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by vikram4689 » Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:44 pm
Ashley@VeritasPrep wrote: (D) Ann has fewer coins than Bob does
(E) Ann has fewer coins than does Bob

These two are also both fine, and (E) is in fact a very common structure. Many people would consider (E) the "best" way to write the sentence stylistically speaking, though again, all except (C) are fine grammatically.
Hey Ashley,
Arent these sentences INCORRECT because in D & E we are doing "has || does."
In the similar fashion,
Ann works as Bob does makes sense BUT
Ann works as Bob has does not makes sense, so i think that we CANNOT use "has || does."
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by Frankenstein » Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:00 pm
Hi,
I am sure Ashley will respond to this. But, let me add my idea on this
Ann has fewer coins than Bob does = Ann has fewer coins than Bob does have(Correct, makes sense)
Ann has fewer coins than does Bob = Ann has fewer coins than does Bob have(Correct, makes sense)

Ann works as Bob does = Ann works as Bob does work(Correct, makes sense)
Ann works as Bob has = Ann works as Bob has work(Incorrect, Bob has work doesn't make sense)
So, you are comparing with an example that is different from what Ashley used.
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by vikram4689 » Sat Jul 02, 2011 12:35 am
Frankenstein wrote:Hi,
Ann has fewer coins than Bob does = Ann has fewer coins than Bob does have(Correct, makes sense)
Ann has fewer coins than does Bob = Ann has fewer coins than does Bob have(Correct, makes sense)
For me, These sentences does not make sense (may be i am wrong) but even reading them is awkward for me and why we need 2 verbs back to back (havent seen anything of that sort)
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by sameerballani » Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:44 am
Could you please add more. I mean what is your doubt? Because i thing Frank has given good explanation.
I feel we need to be more focussed on what is being compared. IN original case its NUMBER of coins.
In this case - 1st) is comparing the way -- SIMILAR WAY -- both the people work.
2nd) is incorrect due to wrong comparison

Thanks
vikram4689 wrote:
Ashley@VeritasPrep wrote: (D) Ann has fewer coins than Bob does
(E) Ann has fewer coins than does Bob

These two are also both fine, and (E) is in fact a very common structure. Many people would consider (E) the "best" way to write the sentence stylistically speaking, though again, all except (C) are fine grammatically.
Hey Ashley,
Arent these sentences INCORRECT because in D & E we are doing "has || does."
In the similar fashion,
Ann works as Bob does makes sense BUT
Ann works as Bob has does not makes sense, so i think that we CANNOT use "has || does."
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by Ashley@VeritasPrep » Sat Jul 02, 2011 2:57 pm
Yes, I think Frankenstein's explanation is quite good. You can think of the verb "do" in any form (does, did, etc.) as playing the same role with respect to verbs as a pronoun plays with respect to nouns. (This is not a real term, but think of it as a "pro-verb.") "Does" (or "did" or "do") refers back to and replaces the initial verb stated just as a pronoun would a noun. So, for instance, in "Ann has more coins than Bob does," "does" MEANS "has." In the sentence, "Software X crashes more often than Software Y does," "does" MEANS "crashes." In "We earn more money than they do," "do" = "earn." And so on.
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by vikram4689 » Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:42 pm
Ashley@VeritasPrep wrote:Yes, I think Frankenstein's explanation is quite good. You can think of the verb "do" in any form (does, did, etc.) as playing the same role with respect to verbs as a pronoun plays with respect to nouns. (This is not a real term, but think of it as a "pro-verb.") "Does" (or "did" or "do") refers back to and replaces the initial verb stated just as a pronoun would a noun. So, for instance, in "Ann has more coins than Bob does," "does" MEANS "has." In the sentence, "Software X crashes more often than Software Y does," "does" MEANS "crashes." In "We earn more money than they do," "do" = "earn." And so on.
Okay, so that means that verb of form "do" (do,does,did) are PROXY for any VERB, and therefore following are CORRECT
(D) Ann has fewer coins than Bob does
(E) Ann has fewer coins than does Bob


BUT verb of form "has/have" are NOT PROXY for any verb, they can only replace the same verb and that is why following sentence is INCORRECT
Ann works as Bob has
Ann has fewer coins than Bob does = Ann has fewer coins than Bob does have(Correct, makes sense)
Ann has fewer coins than does Bob = Ann has fewer coins than does Bob have(Correct, makes sense)
I would like to confirm that above sentences are awkward or correct because if we take does as PROXY for has then in above sentences are repeating the same verb.
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by Ashley@VeritasPrep » Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:49 pm
vikram4689 wrote:
Ann has fewer coins than Bob does = Ann has fewer coins than Bob does have(Correct, makes sense)
Ann has fewer coins than does Bob = Ann has fewer coins than does Bob have(Correct, makes sense)
I would like to confirm that above sentences are awkward or correct because if we take does as PROXY for has then in above sentences are repeating the same verb.
The sentences to the left of the =s are correct and not awkward.
The sentences to the right of the =s were (I think) just being given in explanation of the meanings of the sentences to the left of the =s; these versions on the right are not grammatically wrong, because "does have" has the same meaning and grammatical function as "has," but they are indeed awkward in that they sound unnecessarily wordy.
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by vikram4689 » Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:40 pm
Okay, so that means that verb of form "do" (do,does,did) are PROXY for any VERB, and therefore following are CORRECT
(D) Ann has fewer coins than Bob does
(E) Ann has fewer coins than does Bob


BUT verb of form "has/have" are NOT PROXY for any verb, they can only replace the same verb and that is why following sentence is INCORRECT
Ann works as Bob has
Is the generalization that i made above correct.
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by Ashley@VeritasPrep » Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:58 pm
Well, I wouldn't say that's correct exactly. The problem with the sentence "Ann works as Bob has" is that it's not clear to me what it means. Maybe it means Ann works in the same fashion that Bob has worked in and "translates" to "Anne works as Bob has worked," in which case its grammar is actually fine, but it's not clear that it means that. I don't even really like the sentence "Ann works as Bob does," because again, I'm not sure what it means to work "as Bob works" -- I guess it means in the same way that Bob works, but it could mean at the same time that Bob works or something else. So the grammar seems fine to me, but the meaning doesn't.

Basically, auxiliary verbs when they stand alone can serve as cues to mentally repeat the main verb. So for instance, I could say "Ann works as hard as Bob always has," and the "has" would be a cue to mentally repeat "worked." I could say, "She should earn as much money as he would've if he'd taken the job," and the "would've" ("would have") would be a cue to mentally repeat the main verb "earn" ("as much as he would've (earned)").

More examples:

"I've accomplished more than she has." (The final "accomplished" is *implied* by the "has" cue --> I have accomplished more than she has accomplished.)

"I'll probably take longer than you will." (The final "take" is *implied* by the "will" cue --> I will probably take longer than you will take.)

"I acted exactly as you would have." (The final "acted" is *implied* by the "would have" cue --> I acted just as you would have acted.)

"I'm working harder than he is." (The final "working" is *implied* by the "is" cue --> I am working harder than he is working.)
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