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nakul_anand: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 74; Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:20 pm; Thanked: 4 times

Guidance Needed

by nakul_anand » Mon Oct 12, 2009 6:37 pm

Hello,

My name is Nakul. Need some guidance on how to get a 700 plus score on the GMAT.

GMAT (1st attempt) - 670
Quant - 47
Verbal - 35
Target GMAT score - 750

I had used MGMAT's 3rd edition guides to prepare for the exam. I had gotten scores ranging from 630 to 680 on the 6 CAT exmas offered by MGMAT.

I am now taking an online class for additional help. But whenever I start doing assignments, I get frustrated because I have already gone through the stuff. Agreed that I haven't perfected the stuff, but am still not sure if this is helping me.

I will be taking the GMAT again on the 25th of Novemeber, so I have a good month and a half to prepare.
What direction should I specifically take to achieve the score that I desire?

Should I start taking more tests? And if yes, how frequently should I take them?

How should I allocate the time that I have left? I work full time so, the best I can do is 3-4 hours in a weekday.

Your help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

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Source: Beat The GMAT — Data Sufficiency | Mon Oct 12, 2009 6:37 pm

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lunarpower: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 3380; Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 am; Thanked: 2256 times; Followed by:1535 members; GMAT Score:800

Re: Guidance Needed

by lunarpower » Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:29 am

some points in response.

FIRST:

the first and foremost goal of your study is to get TAKEAWAYS - i.e., lessons that you can APPLY TO FUTURE PROBLEMS.
the goal is NOT to do a bunch of practice problems and get a high % of them right (although that certainly doesn't hurt, but remember that it's NOT the point.)

read both of my posts here for lots of details on what TAKEAWAYS are, and what your study priorities should be:
https://66.39.108.209/need-tips-from-a-s ... 25741.html

nakul_anand wrote:Target GMAT score - 750

that's a really, really high target score. remember that even a 720 would be better than the median score at every business school in the entire world.
what makes you set a target this high?

I had used MGMAT's 3rd edition guides to prepare for the exam. I had gotten scores ranging from 630 to 680 on the 6 CAT exmas offered by MGMAT.

any sort of progression in these scores? are they progressing upward (maybe with a little bit of noise), or do they look as though they're progressing completely at random?

I am now taking an online class for additional help. But whenever I start doing assignments, I get frustrated because I have already gone through the stuff. Agreed that I haven't perfected the stuff, but am still not sure if this is helping me.

make sure that you're getting TAKEAWAYS, as explained above. let me reiterate again, since it's so important: the ONLY things you'll learn that have ANY value are those that COULD APPLY TO FUTURE PROBLEMS.

so when you go back through "the stuff", make sure that you get takeaways that apply to other "stuff" - whether about general problem-solving methods or about specifics (but, except with idioms, not SO specific that you won't realistically see them again).

Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

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lunarpower: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 3380; Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 am; Thanked: 2256 times; Followed by:1535 members; GMAT Score:800

by lunarpower » Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:42 am

I will be taking the GMAT again on the 25th of Novemeber, so I have a good month and a half to prepare.
What direction should I specifically take to achieve the score that I desire?

the first thing you should do is ISOLATE THE AREAS IN WHICH YOU'RE HAVING TROUBLE.

in this post you haven't given any indicators of SPECIFIC trouble areas at all. (all you've given is overall q/v scores, which are not granular enough to answer a query like this one.)

then, you should seek out problems in those areas, whether from forums, OG, or mgmat materials.

but most importantly, YOU SHOULD NOT JUST DO TONS OF PROBLEMS. you should get TAKEAWAYS from each and every problem you do.

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lunarpower: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 3380; Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 am; Thanked: 2256 times; Followed by:1535 members; GMAT Score:800

by lunarpower » Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:42 am

Should I start taking more tests? And if yes, how frequently should I take them?

NO.

i looked at your practice tests, and you've taken SEVEN exams in something like two weeks.

that's an absolutely ridiculous rate of test-taking, and it proves that you are NOT reviewing the tests in depth.

you should REVIEW ALL PROBLEMS on the practice test IN DEPTH.

make sure you get at least one TAKEAWAY from each problem: "if i see ______ ON ANOTHER PROBLEM, i should _______"

this applies not only to problems you get wrong, but also to problems you get right! after all, there's no better place to find strategies THAT WORK.

in any case, you should spend MORE time REVIEWING your tests than taking them.
a good guideline, although a rough one, is 1:1 ratio of study:test-taking for problems you got right, and 3:1 to 4:1 for problems you got wrong.

this means that, for a three-hour practice test, you should be reviewing for 5-7 hours, depending on the number of problems you got right/wrong.

How should I allocate the time that I have left? I work full time so, the best I can do is 3-4 hours in a weekday.

"3-4 hours in a weekday" is close to the absolute maximum of adult human learning capacity.

the people who, as adults, can LEARN and RETAIN information for more than 3-4 hours in one day are a negligibly tiny fraction of the population (<<< 1 percent). if you're one of those people, then you have known it from the time you entered pre-school.

if not, then any time above 3-4 hours in one day is completely wasted time.

(note that i'm NOT saying that you can't WORK or RECITE for more than this many hours - that's perfectly possible. for instance, the MCAT (american medical admissions test) is seven to eight hours long. but the difference is, that's not learning; it's recitation. basically nobody can learn for more than about 3 hours at once, and about 4 or 5 hours in a whole day.)

in any case, you have a huge wealth of analysis tools available to you. the first thing you should do is ISOLATE YOUR WEAKNESSES. then go from there.

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nakul_anand: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 74; Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:20 pm; Thanked: 4 times

Thanks Ron

by nakul_anand » Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:49 pm

Ron,

Thanks for your detailed reply. This is really going to help me.

The problematic areas are -

1) Reading Comprehension- Identify the 'Tone' Questions

2) Critical Reasoning- Weaken and Strengthen Conclusion Questions.

3) Quant - Probability and Combinatronics.

Apart from this, overall Time Management is an issue, and that's what was the biggest problem when I took the GMAT for the first time.

I took the 7 CATs after finishing all the OGs and the MGMAT books. So all I did in the last couple of weeks before taking the GMAT was to review my CATs and take more CATs.

I am reviewing the CATs even now and that's helping me for sure.

Is 750 too high a score to aim?

I have scheduled the GMAT for 25th November. I am reviewing the CATs and the MGMAT books for now. Do you think 25th is too soon?? Should I reshcedule??

Thanks in advance!
Nakul

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nakul_anand: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 74; Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:20 pm; Thanked: 4 times

Thanks Ron

by nakul_anand » Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:51 pm

And yes, I need to focus on Takeaways more than I do.

Thanks,
Nakul

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lunarpower: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 3380; Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 am; Thanked: 2256 times; Followed by:1535 members; GMAT Score:800

Re: Thanks Ron

by lunarpower » Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:08 am

nakul_anand wrote:1) Reading Comprehension- Identify the 'Tone' Questions

3) Quant - Probability and Combinatronics.

these are two very minor areas.

TONE:

in fact (despite the presence of a few explicit "tone" questions on our mgmat cat tests), you are unlikely to see any question that explicitly ASKS for the "tone" of the passage.

there are extant official questions related to tone, but they don't use abstract terms that refer to qualities of the tone itself. instead, they refer to consequences of the tone. (for instance, i recall a question that says, "the tone of the passage suggests that its primary audience is..." --> you don't have to state what the tone is; you just have to figure out the intended audience, a much easier task).

COMBINATORICS & PROBABILITY:

unless you get an experimental combinatorics problem, you will not get more than 1 combinatorics problem. furthermore, it is nearly certain that you'll be able to solve the problem by just (a) multiplying numbers of possibilities for different choices, and, if order doesn't matter, (b) dividing by the factorials of the number of items chosen.
at most, you'll have to do the above steps (a) and (b) for a couple of different sub-sets, but that should be it.
combinatorics is notable for being the only area in which i REGULARLY see forum problems that are WAY WAY WAY too hard for the gmat.
there are lots of problems posted on this forum (many of which, i suspect, are from the indian CAT test) that are far too advanced in combinatorics.

probability problems on the real gmat usually aren't that complicated, either. this is another area in which i see lots of problems on the forum that are much, much harder than what normally appears on the test, even at the highest levels (although probably not as often as in combinatorics).

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lunarpower: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 3380; Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 am; Thanked: 2256 times; Followed by:1535 members; GMAT Score:800

Re: Thanks Ron

by lunarpower » Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:05 am

nakul_anand wrote:2) Critical Reasoning- Weaken and Strengthen Conclusion Questions.

now there you've got something.

WEAKEN is the single most common problem type on CR. strengthen is somewhat less common, but you will still see a lot of it.

three ways to attack WEAKEN questions:

1 * try to FIND THE UNDERLYING ASSUMPTIONS, and FIND A CHOICE THAT CONTRADICTS THEM.
weakening works the vast majority of the time by shooting down assumptions. so, if an argument CLEARLY rests on some assumption, then you can shoot it down.

2 * try to SIMPLIFY THE ARGUMENT into AS FEW WORDS AS POSSIBLE.
most weaken problems are hard, at least in part, because they contain lots of "noise".
if you get rid of the "noise", you'll often find that you can summarize the gist of the argument - including all the RELEVANT details - in just a couple of lines.
if you do this, it will be A LOT easier to identify possible weak points in the argument.

so, try your best to simplify the argument (to half its current length or less). if you identify anything as irrelevant background information, then you should eliminate it altogether.
then answer the question.

3 * REVERSAL METHOD
reverse the statements (as you would for Assumption problems --> reverse them in the mildest possible way).
if the reversal SOLIDIFIES the argument, or is a NECESSARY ASSUMPTION, then you've got the right weakener.

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lunarpower: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 3380; Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 am; Thanked: 2256 times; Followed by:1535 members; GMAT Score:800

Re: Thanks Ron

by lunarpower » Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:12 am

nakul_anand wrote:Apart from this, overall Time Management is an issue, and that's what was the biggest problem when I took the GMAT for the first time.

about 95% of time management boils down to QUITTING AND MOVING ON, QUICKLY, when you are STUCK.

if you simply AVOID DELIBERATING - i.e., as soon as you realize that you are "stuck", STOP and either try another method or guess - then your time-management problems should mostly go away.

if you have a type A personality, or (ironically) if you are accustomed to doing very well on tests, this advice will be harder to follow. but that doesn't make it any less essential.

I am reviewing the CATs even now and that's helping me for sure.

this is good. remember that review is MUCH more important than actually taking the tests.

the primary value of taking the tests lies in learning time management. beyond that, ALL the rest of their value lies in review.

Is 750 too high a score to aim?

well ... that's pretty high.

if your previous scores indicate that this score is reasonable (i.e., if your scores form a trajectory that appears to be heading that way), then, no, it's not too high. if they don't, then it's probably too high.

in any case, you should realize that even a 720 is higher than the median (for admitted students, not just applicants) at every business school in the entire world.

so it's doubtful that a 750 is necessary at any school, unless you have very little else to distinguish you at all on other parts of your application.

nevertheless - if your scores indicate that such a score is possible, you should still aim high. it's better to have an ambitious goal and fall a bit short than to shortchange yourself. but, by the same token, you shouldn't kill yourself shooting for a goal that's way out of the league of your practice scores, either.

I have scheduled the GMAT for 25th November. I am reviewing the CATs and the MGMAT books for now. Do you think 25th is too soon?? Should I reshcedule??

that's still over a month away. you should probably leave it as is.

have you already taken the test? if not, then remember that you should probably plan to take it at least twice. remember that schools generally look at only your best score.

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nakul_anand: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 74; Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:20 pm; Thanked: 4 times

Thanks Ron

by nakul_anand » Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:29 pm

Ron,

I took the GMAT at the end of August. Scored 670 on it.
My MGMAT CAT scores were 630, 640, 660, 660, 680, 670, and 710. I am not sure if I would want to count the 7th CAT because some of the questions were repeated and I already knew the answers to them.

Haven't taken a CAT since my GMAT.
Well as far as the score goes, I am targetting 750 but will certainly be happy with 720. So anything between 720 and 750 is what I am looking to score.

Competetion is increasing by the day so I want to make sure that I get into one of the better schools. A good GMAT score certainly helps.

Thanks a ton for your invaluable recommendations.

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lunarpower: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 3380; Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 am; Thanked: 2256 times; Followed by:1535 members; GMAT Score:800

Re: Thanks Ron

by lunarpower » Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:41 pm

I took the GMAT at the end of August. Scored 670 on it.
My MGMAT CAT scores were 630, 640, 660, 660, 680, 670, and 710. I am not sure if I would want to count the 7th CAT because some of the questions were repeated and I already knew the answers to them.

yeah, you probably shouldn't count that last score as anything meaningful.

have you take the GMATPREP exams yet?
if you're going to repeat an exam, then you're probably better off repeating the GMATPREP exams since, on average, a repeated GMATPREP exam is going to contain more new questions than will a repeated MGMAT exam.

in any case, your primary task at this point is to review, not to take more exams (although there's nothing wrong with taking more exams as a secondary task).

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nakul_anand: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 74; Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:20 pm; Thanked: 4 times

Thanks Ron

by nakul_anand » Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:27 am

Ron,

I did take the GMAT prep exam before taking the GMAT.

I had scored 720 on that exam. This exam was in the CD that the GMAC sends you when you register for the GMAT. But the GMAC sends you that CD only once a year.

So although I have registered for the GMAT again, I will not get a new CD from GMAC. I think I can find some tests on mba.com.

I will review each and every thing very carefully Ron.

Thanks a ton for your suggestions!!

Regards,
Nakul

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Stacey Koprince: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 2228; Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 3:28 pm; Location: Montreal, Canada; Thanked: 639 times; Followed by:694 members; GMAT Score:780

by Stacey Koprince » Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:44 am

Received a PM asking me to reply. Ron nailed it. I just have one thing to add.

You can still take both GMATPrep and MGMAT CATs with repeats as long as you follow a few guidelines to minimize the chance of artificially inflating your score via question repeats. First, anytime you see a problem that you remember (and this means: I know the answer or I'm pretty sure I remember the answer, not just "hmm, this looks vaguely familiar..."), immediately look at the timer and make yourself sit there for the full length of time for that question type. This way, you don't artificially give yourself more time than you should have. Second, think about whether you got this problem right the last time. If you did, get it right again this time. If you didn't, get it wrong again. If you *completely honestly* think that you would get it right this time around if it were a new question (even though you got it wrong last time) because you've studied that area and improved, then get it right this time.

Please note: I do not use the Private Messaging system! I will not see any PMs that you send to me!!

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nakul_anand: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 74; Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:20 pm; Thanked: 4 times

Thanks Stacy

by nakul_anand » Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:26 pm

Stacey,

Thanks for your response. I have been told by many that gmat.com has like 3-4 tests apart from the tests in the GMATprep software. Is that true??

Do you encourage taking MGMAT tests (I have already taken 7, though its been a while) or should I be looking at another source?

Thanks,
Nakul

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