From 470 to 600 - Not done yet. Need Expert Advice. (:

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Hi All,

I have been on beathtegmat forum for past 1.3 years. Reading others inspiring stories gives me a guiding force to work harder and say to myself "If they can do it, so can I" - Nothing is Impossible.

My background:
UGPA- 60%-Bachelors in Mechanical Eng from India. Work Exp before Grad school-2 yrs

2. GGPA-3.71, Master in Industrial Eng, Work Exp after MS-4.5 yrs till day, + 11 months internship Diverse Experience: Automotive Technology + Medical Technology. Both Fortune 300 companies

Material I have used in my preparation:
1. Manhattan GMAT - all books
2. Manhattan GMAT online access to their full content
3. Powerscore - CR Bible
4. GMAThacks - The Math guide
5. GmatPrep - 10th, 11th, 12th ( you can see I have been doing this for awhile)


I started my preparation in October/Novemeber 2008. In 2008 though I studied the gmat, but I think I did not understand how difficult it is to conquer the beast. After enough of preparation, I gave my first attempt on June 2009

First attempt: 470 (V-20, Q-36, 4.5) - Lost 5 minutes on the test

After I came back from my first break (2mins earlier than break), the proctor did not sign me and forgot her password, as a result one I was seated and ended up starting the Quant section 1.30 mins behind. This did create the anxiety I did not need and it so happened that I had to end up guessing the last 7-8 questions. My poor result is evident of my setback.

It was strange, but when I cam back from the second break, another proctor made the same mistake and this time around I ended up loosing 3.5 mins + overall in the verbal section. Something that further frustrated me, because of the negligence of both proctors. Both of them were old ladies. I had to end-up guessing the last 7-8 questions because of this issue and also because verbal is my weak section. I even complained to GMAC and spent few hours over the phone discussing this issue but they were reluctant to help or void this score.

As they say time is the key. I took my next date on Sep 3, 2009.

Second attempt: 500 (V-21, Q-37, 4.5)

This time around, I realized I cannot rely on proctor's ability to log me in or out, so while I was practicing full-length tests, I reduced my break time to half so that even this problem were to happen again, I would have plenty of time to cover it.

I had completed the 10th, 11th edition of the books once and even completed the quant and verbal guides. I had tracked my mistakes via Manhattan Gmat tracking tool so that I could go back and re-do tests when it came close to the exam.
I used the ManhattanGMAT Quant books as a reference guide and paid more attention on the Verbal Section.

During the test, I had no issues with the proctor this time (same location, but the break time was reduced during this time), but I could not complete the exam on time and had to guess 5-7 questions on both sections.
I was actually shocked to see my quant score, since I thought I did well, but then in hindsight may be some of guesses could have been wrong.

By the way, I am married to a beautiful and caring wife, so she was going through all the pain as I.

Third attempt: 550 (V-23, Q-44, 5.5) on February 2010.

I took a break from GMAT to India for vacations and realized that I needed lot of work to be done on verbal section. Thus, took a short crash course from Powerscore. Their tips were helpful and the tutor recommended me I understand the mechanics of SC and give my exam sometime in Feb or March.
This time around I changed my location of test too and I am not sure whether it had an impact on my score or not, but my score improved and that is what mattered to me.

Still at my third attempt I was frustrated on why verbal score did not improve.


Fourth: 600 (V-25, Q-46, 5.0) on May 2010.

With the fourth attempt, I decided that I needed more personal help and hired an online tutor. The Online tutor was located in West coast and I am in East coast. Working with for him 1.5 months and by myself, I spend 70-80% of time on Verbal. I did understand SC well and I believe I have improved my ability to distill and identify issues with wrong and correct answers much more than my first attempt. However, CR was still my weak point. I went through the same regimen this time, but did things differently. I was more focused on Verbal section - Solved 10 independent tests and couple of GMATPrep full length tests. I also solved the Verbal guide and 12th edition. Repeatedly doing them again and again, I was able to understand how GMATPrep develops question and in same cases knew the answers within 20 sec of reading the question.

In fact, I even took a week-off from work to focus on gmat and not deal with work or political related issues at work.
During this attempt, I was not able to complete the issue essay they way I wanted. In the Quant section, I was able to complete the section in time with only guessing two questions and with the Verbal, I ended up guessing 4-5 questions much less than before, but still not what I expected.

My GmatPrep score during my fourth attempt:

GPrep 2 on 04/01 - V-31, did not solve Quant
GPrep 1 on 04/02 - V-31, did not solve Quant
GPrep 1 on 04/03 - Q-48, V-35 (Score: 680) - many repetitions from previous test
Gprep 2 on 04/05 - V-35, did not solve Quant
Gprep 2 on 04/07 - Q-47, V-35 (Score: 680) - few repetitions from previous test
Gprep 2 on 04/08 -V-28, did not solve Quant


During most of my practice tests, I did not write the essays. I do have score from my other practice exams, but they are on similar lines. My Manhanttan practice test score were in the range of 550-600. In most of Grep tests, there were many repetitions so at times I feel it was not representative of the real exam.

I understand I need to increase my score in Verbal from 26-to 38-40, which I believe is possible. Through history (GRE) I have realized, I am not a good Computer Adaptive test taker.

My mistakes:
1. Not solving the complete exams in practice tests
2. Giving just GPrep and ManhanttanGmat tests was not enough. The reason I did this because through my research I have heard other are not representative of the real test.
3. Completing GMAT and may be even MBA before I got married so that my spouse does not have to go through the pain and frustrations as I.

My question are to experts such as Ian, Stacy, Stuart and others, and fellow test takers who have successfully made this leap in their verbal score.

1. What should I do differently this time and make sure the plan sticks
2. I would like to increase my score in 1.5 months. Is this achievable and realistic?
3. I have heard numerous times that no. of attempts do not matter. However, will it matter to the schools that may be in my 5th attempt I have achieved the desired score.

Look forward to suggestions from expert advice and fellow test takers.

Thank you.
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by money9111 » Sun May 23, 2010 3:17 pm
750Goal wrote: 3. I have heard numerous times that no. of attempts do not matter. However, will it matter to the schools that may be in my 5th attempt I have achieved the desired score.
The number of attempts do matter when you've taken the exam 4+ times. The adcom will start to look at this and think "Why didn't this candidate work on the rest of their candidacy instead of spending all of this time and money on the exam?"
My goal is to make MBA applicants take onus over their process.

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by 750Goal » Sun May 23, 2010 6:43 pm
Thanks money9111 for your response and appreciate your comment. However, I disagree with you. The reason I say this, because I believe rest of my candidacy is quite strong including extra curricular activities, etc, which I have not listed.

So let me ask you and the experts, if I my entire application including leadership skills, extracurricular activities is strong, then will no. of gmat attempts affect my candidacy negatively?

Thank you for your response.[/quote]

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by taylor85 » Sun May 23, 2010 9:05 pm
5 times is really too much. everybody has a plateau and i think you've reached yours, especially if you've been studying for this thing for over a year. i would move on and focus on the rest of your app. your quant score is good, and a 25V isn't completely terrible if you're a international applicant.

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by money9111 » Mon May 24, 2010 9:27 am
750Goal wrote:Thanks money9111 for your response and appreciate your comment. However, I disagree with you. The reason I say this, because I believe rest of my candidacy is quite strong including extra curricular activities, etc, which I have not listed.

So let me ask you and the experts, if I my entire application including leadership skills, extracurricular activities is strong, then will no. of gmat attempts affect my candidacy negatively?

Thank you for your response.
[/quote]

750Goal I'm going to disagree with you :-)

Each info session that I've been too, AdCom member that I've spoken, podcast I've listened too, and book I've read has explicitly said that 3 times is okay but any more than that is fruitless. It's great that your scores have improved each time, but it won't look good in the eyes of the AdCom. I can say that without fear of being proved wrong.

So as taylor85 said "...move on and focus on the rest of your app...your Quant score is good..."

If you were to score a 750 on the 5th try, sure the other 4 attempts would not matter, but what if you don't?
My goal is to make MBA applicants take onus over their process.

My story from Pre-MBA to Cornell MBA - New Post in Pre-MBA blog

Me featured on Poets & Quants

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by gmat_perfect » Mon May 24, 2010 11:18 am
I have seen one who have tried 7 times.

His scores were increasing one after another. His first score was 470, and his final score at the 7th attempt was 740.
Now, he is in one of the top 20 business schools.

So, who cares the number of attempts?


GMAT is just an admission test. If any one passes the test after 100th attempt, who will prevent him? Rather, it represents his/her endurance.

Yet, taking more than 2 times is costly, and it needs patience.

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by uwhusky » Mon May 24, 2010 11:44 am
I think what money and taylor are saying is that 5 tries with the same range of scores may hurt you more than 3 tries with the same range of scores, and gmat_perfect gave an example of someone who probably took the GMAT test prematurely, but have improved his/her score.

I guess to "solve the paradox", if you don't think your score will increase significantly, the more you take it, the more it might end up hurting your admission. =)

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by rsiddi01 » Tue May 25, 2010 6:55 am
Good job!!! for not giving up, if not for anything else is should feel good to know you did it for yourself! :)

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by lunarpower » Fri May 28, 2010 5:02 am
this is not really a comprehensive response, but here are a couple of thoughts in response to your post.

(1)
that's certainly a lot of books you've gone through. the power score cr bible is already a few hundred pages; taken together, the books you have studied are definitely into the thousands of pages.
once you get to that kind of quantity of material, you start to face the problem of information overload -- it's simply impossible to retain that much information. so, in your future preparation for CR and RC, you should concentrate on distilling the information down to a very small amount.
in other words:
for each CR and RC problem type, try to boil all of your collected wisdom down to 3-4 principal points of strategy that you can easily retain and use on test day.
here's a sample:
CR "Draw the Conclusion"
* pick the choice that can be PROVED -- i have to be 100% SURE that the answer choice is true
* should COMBINE two or more statements from the passage
* can IMMEDIATELY ELIMINATE choices that are OUT OF SCOPE


this is what you should do for each CR and RC problem type. this strategy is less feasible for sentence correction -- since sentence correction is basically a collection of hundreds upon hundreds of random rules -- but you have stated that sentence correction is not as much of a problem for you, so this type of approach should thus be a priority for you.

(2)
poster "uwhusky" above is correct about the impact of multiple test administrations on your application.
specifically, the only possible negative outcome is a very high number of repetitions with NO noticeable upward trend. if your scores are steadily creeping upward, then by all means you can still continue to take test administrations even beyond the usual recommendation of 3.

(3)
Completing GMAT and may be even MBA before I got married so that my spouse does not have to go through the pain and frustrations as I.
that's what good spouses are there for.
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

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by Stacey Koprince » Mon May 31, 2010 11:59 am
Received a PM asking me to respond.

I generally agree with the posters above who say that, if you are actually showing improvement, then it's not necessarily bad to take the test more than 3 times. There is no "one-size-fits-all" answer to this, though. This is a very individual thing - different schools have different policies, and some schools don't have formal polices, so different admissions officers at the same school might view the same thing differently.

So far, you have shown very nice improvement; nice work.
I could not complete the exam on time and had to guess 5-7 questions on both sections.
I was actually shocked to see my quant score, since I thought I did well, but then in hindsight may be some of guesses could have been wrong.
As a general rule, you should assume that ALL of your guesses will be wrong, not that most or even some will be right. Assume the worst, not the best. The worst case scenario is that you will miss every single one - and, if that happens, it will KILL your score. If you get the last 5 questions wrong in a row, and you were scoring at the 70th percentile before you got those 5 wrong, your final score will be the 55th percentile. You will lose 15 percentile points for getting those 5 wrong. (Note: the numbers vary depending upon your scoring level and the number wrong in a row; this particular scenario - using the above numbers - was given by the VP in charge of the algorithm at GMAC, the organization that owns the test.)

You mention having to guess on your other tests as well, including your final one. If you take the test again, you MUST fix this timing problem. The higher you go, the harder it gets to improve even further if you have major timing problems. There are a lot of articles here on BTG that can help, including this one:
https://www.beatthegmat.com/mba/2009/12/ ... management

Also, you mentioned doing an MGMAT test, which means you have an online account with us. Sign into your student center at MGMAT and go to the Extras section. Download the free e-book The GMAT Uncovered and read it. Pay particular attention to the part that discusses the scoring and the timing.

You also correctly identify another problem: when you do take practice tests, you need to take them under full official conditions, including the essays, including the lengths of the breaks, etc.

And, no, you shouldn't expect taking practice tests to cause your score to improve all that much. CAT exams are really good for (a) figuring out where you're scoring right now, (b) practicing stamina, and (c) analyzing your strengths and weaknesses. The actual act of just taking the exam is NOT so useful for improving. It's what you do with the test results / between tests that helps you to improve.

Here are some articles that can help you with how you study - this analysis is how you get better:
https://www.beatthegmat.com/a/2009/09/23 ... tice-tests
https://www.beatthegmat.com/a/2009/10/09 ... ce-problem
https://www.beatthegmat.com/mba/2010/04/ ... our-errors

https://www.beatthegmat.com/mba/2010/03/ ... c-question
https://www.beatthegmat.com/mba/2010/01/ ... r-question
https://www.beatthegmat.com/mba/2010/02/ ... e-question

The archive of my articles is located here: https://www.beatthegmat.com/mba/manhattan-gmat

I'm sure there are also other great articles from experts at other companies; take advantage of the material out there. At the same time, be a bit more picky, as Ron said: make sure that you don't overwhelm yourself such that you have conflicting advice or can't remember everything.
Please note: I do not use the Private Messaging system! I will not see any PMs that you send to me!!

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by 750Goal » Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:22 pm
Thank you Ron and Stacy for the detailed reply. I am going to follow your suggestions:

1. Work diligently on my CR
2. Fix my timing problem and make sure I always complete test on time
3. Do practice tests in full

Stacy, I also appreciate you sharing different articles with me.

Lastly, thank you everyone for your criticism and encouragement.

"Nothing is Impossible"!