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Flight - Need clarification

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missrochelle: Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts; Posts: 117; Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:02 am

by missrochelle » Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:13 am

I still dont get why "the number" isn't countable. Is it simply that "The number" itself is a count.... so if the number was 5 that doubled, you wouldn't say "how many 5's do you have"?.

If one of the answers were "twice as much as the increase of" the previous year would this be correct?

Lastly - what's the difference between increase in / increase of? Are they interchangeable as idioms?

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lunarpower: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 3380; Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 amFollowed by: 1535 members; Thanked: 2256 times; GMAT Score:800

by lunarpower » Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:23 am

missrochelle wrote:I still dont get why "the number" isn't countable. Is it simply that "The number" itself is a count.... so if the number was 5 that doubled, you wouldn't say "how many 5's do you have"?.

that's exactly the reason.

If one of the answers were "twice as much as the increase of" the previous year would this be correct?

eeeeehhh.
probably not, because that construction would become redundant: if you say "increase OF", then you have to follow that with a number.
so, for instance, if you wrote
this year the heat index rose by 4 degrees, twice (as much as) the increase of 2 degrees seen last year
... then that's redundant; you don't need a sentence that tells the reader that 2 x 2 = 4.

also, the "as much as" isn't necessary here; you could just write "twice the increase".

Lastly - what's the difference between increase in / increase of? Are they interchangeable as idioms?

"increase in X" implies that X is the thing being measured. (e.g. an increase in white blood cell count generally signals the onset of disease)
"increase of X" implies that X is a numerical amount by which something has increased. (e.g. each year las vegas has experienced an increase of 0.2 degrees in its summer temperatures)

Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

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CaptainM: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 46; Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:54 amFollowed by: 1 member

by CaptainM » Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:06 am

lunarpower wrote: in this case, you can't use "..., twice as many as...", because that's an appositive modifier. appositives must modify some noun that comes IMMEDIATELY before the comma, which in this case would have to be whatever figure is twice whatever other figure. since that figure isn't given, you can't use this construction.

Amazing Explanation Ron!!!
Please explain why "twice" in the following GPREP problem correct(not questioning the Official answer but trying to understand the concept )? Is "twice" used below not acting as appositive?If yes, then why it is not modifying the noun that's there IMMEDIATELY before the comma?
According to surveys by the National Institute on Drug Abuse, about 20 percent of young adults used cocaine in 1979, doubling those reported in the 1977 survey.
A. doubling those reported in the 1977 survey
B. to double the number the 1977 survey reported
C. twice those the 1977 survey reported
D. twice as much as those reported in the 1977 survey
E. twice the number reported in the 1977 survey (OA)

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by lunarpower » Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:17 pm

CaptainM wrote:
lunarpower wrote: in this case, you can't use "..., twice as many as...", because that's an appositive modifier. appositives must modify some noun that comes IMMEDIATELY before the comma, which in this case would have to be whatever figure is twice whatever other figure. since that figure isn't given, you can't use this construction.
Amazing Explanation Ron!!!
Please explain why "twice" in the following GPREP problem correct(not questioning the Official answer but trying to understand the concept )? Is "twice" used below not acting as appositive?If yes, then why it is not modifying the noun that's there IMMEDIATELY before the comma?

appositives don't have to work that way.
see here
https://www.beatthegmat.com/modifier-con ... tml#366042

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tanviet: Legendary Member; Posts: 1404; Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 6:55 pmFollowed by: 2 members; Thanked: 18 times

by tanviet » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:57 pm

lunarpower wrote:
Jatinder wrote:Couple of ppoints here:

We need doubling here, not twice

as twice is an adverb, and we have to modify "the number", which requires adjective
i will reiterate my advice from a previous post: do not concentrate excessively on labeling constructions as parts of speech (or other linguistic terms). instead, just learn which types of constructions are allowed and which aren't, and select sentences that are constructed along the lines of the former.

in this case, you can't use "..., twice as many as...", because that's an appositive modifier. appositives must modify some noun that comes IMMEDIATELY before the comma, which in this case would have to be whatever figure is twice whatever other figure. since that figure isn't given, you can't use this construction.

ust wondering how A is correct?

Ron, Can you please comment?
because the increase itself was doubled.
the "that of" is a PRONOUN. it would have to stand for a noun that would actually make sense in context - and there's nothing "of" the increase. therefore, "that of" is wrong.

Ron, please, help
why B is wrong. "that of" means "the number of" and is logic
we do not need "noun of" at the beginning of the sentence to use "that of " at the end of sentence. For example, I learn English and that of America is better than that of England. This is correct. I thing.
Ron, Please, explain, why B is wrong.

one thing more

COMA DOING refers to action of previous clause but the place of DOING must be logic. for example:

I learn English, making my mother happy------ is correct
English is learned by my, making my mother happy----------is incorrect.

Am I right?

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tanviet: Legendary Member; Posts: 1404; Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 6:55 pmFollowed by: 2 members; Thanked: 18 times

by tanviet » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:59 pm

PLEASE, HELP, FRIENDS.

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lunarpower: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 3380; Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 amFollowed by: 1535 members; Thanked: 2256 times; GMAT Score:800

by lunarpower » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:20 am

duongthang wrote:Ron, please, help
why B is wrong. "that of" means "the number of" and is logic

nope -- "that of" logically doesn't correspond to anything, as i pointed out above. this is why it is wrong; there's no legitimate antecedent.
(in context, the increase itself was doubled.)

if you try to let that = number, then you get "the number of the increase"; this is a nonsense construction.

"the number of X" only works in two ways -- (1) if X is some countable noun that you are actually counting (e.g., the number of dogs in the shelter); (2) if something is labeled with a number (e.g., the number of the room in which our meeting will be held).

I learn English, making my mother happy------ is correct
English is learned by my, making my mother happy----------is incorrect.

Am I right?

you've labeled correct/incorrect correctly, yes.
(there's no such thing as "by my" --> that would be "by me")

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tanviet: Legendary Member; Posts: 1404; Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 6:55 pmFollowed by: 2 members; Thanked: 18 times

by tanviet » Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:56 pm

lunarpower wrote:
duongthang wrote:Ron, please, help
why B is wrong. "that of" means "the number of" and is logic
nope -- "that of" logically doesn't correspond to anything, as i pointed out above. this is why it is wrong; there's no legitimate antecedent.
(in context, the increase itself was doubled.)

if you try to let that = number, then you get "the number of the increase"; this is a nonsense construction.

"the number of X" only works in two ways -- (1) if X is some countable noun that you are actually counting (e.g., the number of dogs in the shelter); (2) if something is labeled with a number (e.g., the number of the room in which our meeting will be held).

I learn English, making my mother happy------ is correct
English is learned by my, making my mother happy----------is incorrect.

Am I right?
you've labeled correct/incorrect correctly, yes.
(there's no such thing as "by my" --> that would be "by me")

Ron, thank you. I agree with you.
but "that of increase" can mean " the number of people of increase" and so B is correct.
Is that possible?, please, help me out, Ron.

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tanviet: Legendary Member; Posts: 1404; Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 6:55 pmFollowed by: 2 members; Thanked: 18 times

by tanviet » Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:03 pm

lunarpower wrote:
duongthang wrote:Ron, please, help
why B is wrong. "that of" means "the number of" and is logic
nope -- "that of" logically doesn't correspond to anything, as i pointed out above. this is why it is wrong; there's no legitimate antecedent.
(in context, the increase itself was doubled.)

if you try to let that = number, then you get "the number of the increase"; this is a nonsense construction.

"the number of X" only works in two ways -- (1) if X is some countable noun that you are actually counting (e.g., the number of dogs in the shelter); (2) if something is labeled with a number (e.g., the number of the room in which our meeting will be held).

I learn English, making my mother happy------ is correct
English is learned by my, making my mother happy----------is incorrect.

Am I right?
you've labeled correct/incorrect correctly, yes.
(there's no such thing as "by my" --> that would be "by me")

Ron, In general, I want to make a point clear. Can "that" refer to a group of noun such as " the number of people" or "that" can only refer to ONE NOUN such as " the number".

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by lunarpower » Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:03 am

duongthang wrote: Ron, thank you. I agree with you.
but "that of increase" can mean " the number of people of increase" and so B is correct.
Is that possible?, please, help me out, Ron.

"the number of people of the increase" is not a legitimate construction.

as i wrote in the last post -- if you try to let that = number, then you get "the number of the increase"; this is a nonsense construction.

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by lunarpower » Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:08 am

duongthang wrote:Ron, In general, I want to make a point clear. Can "that" refer to a group of noun such as " the number of people" or "that" can only refer to ONE NOUN such as " the number".

if you have the construction NOUN1 + prep + NOUN2, then there is no difference between "referring to NOUN1" and "referring to NOUN1+prep+NOUN2".
for instance,
the part of the film that people remembered best was the scene in which Gail and Joe were reunited.
in this sentence, you can say that "that" refers to "part"; you can also say that "that" refers to "part of the film". there is no difference between these two assertions.

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sukkhi: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 57; Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2013 3:13 am

by sukkhi » Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:09 pm

lunarpower wrote:
Jatinder wrote:Couple of ppoints here:

We need doubling here, not twice

as twice is an adverb, and we have to modify "the number", which requires adjective
i will reiterate my advice from a previous post: do not concentrate excessively on labeling constructions as parts of speech (or other linguistic terms). instead, just learn which types of constructions are allowed and which aren't, and select sentences that are constructed along the lines of the former.

in this case, you can't use "..., twice as many as...", because that's an appositive modifier. appositives must modify some noun that comes IMMEDIATELY before the comma, which in this case would have to be whatever figure is twice whatever other figure. since that figure isn't given, you can't use this construction.

ust wondering how A is correct?

Ron, Can you please comment?
because the increase itself was doubled.
the "that of" is a PRONOUN. it would have to stand for a noun that would actually make sense in context - and there's nothing "of" the increase. therefore, "that of" is wrong.

in option-(a) doubling the increase of the previous year.....how can the previous year's increase be doubled?....
am i misinterpreting something here ...pls xplain?

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lunarpower: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 3380; Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 amFollowed by: 1535 members; Thanked: 2256 times; GMAT Score:800

by lunarpower » Sun Jun 29, 2014 5:49 am

An increase is a numerical quantity, so, like any other numerical quantity, it can theoretically be doubled.

I.e., in 1989 ("the previous year"), this statistic went up by N percent. Then, in 1990, it went up by 2N percent (= twice the previous increase).

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sukkhi: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 57; Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2013 3:13 am

by sukkhi » Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:51 pm

lunarpower wrote:An increase is a numerical quantity, so, like any other numerical quantity, it can theoretically be doubled.

I.e., in 1989 ("the previous year"), this statistic went up by N percent. Then, in 1990, it went up by 2N percent (= twice the previous increase).

No quantitative issue...i'm just finding it hard to absorb the meaning of "x rose sharply in 1990,doubling the increase of previous year"

intended meaning- 1990's increase(2n) is double the previous year's increase (n)

i thought the end modifier kinda says "n is made 2n"...[which is bullshit- how can "n" be doubled thats in past it will always be the same]

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lunarpower: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 3380; Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:20 amFollowed by: 1535 members; Thanked: 2256 times; GMAT Score:800

by lunarpower » Sun Jul 06, 2014 1:09 am

i thought the end modifier kinda says "n is made 2n"...[which is bullshit- how can "n" be doubled thats in past it will always be the same]

When it comes to dealing with correct answers to official problems, you have 2 options:
1/ Complain about them and/or say why you think they're wrong;
2/ Figure out how they work, learn from them, and retain these experiences as part of a growing "memory bank" of formal written English.

You can do either of these things, of course, but only one of them will actually help you improve.

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