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## Doubt regarding an official OG que

This topic has 5 expert replies and 9 member replies
loveusonu Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
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#### Doubt regarding an official OG que

Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:21 am
The results of two recent unrelated studies support the idea that dolphins may share certain cognitive abilities with humans and great apes; the studies indicate dolphins as capable of recognizing themselves in mirrors-an ability that is often considered a sign of self-awareness-and to grasp spontaneously the mood or intention of humans.

(A) dolphins as capable of recognizing themselves in mirrors-an ability that is often considered a sign of self-awareness-and to grasp spontaneously

(B) dolphins’ ability to recognize themselves in mirrors-an ability that is often considered as a sign of self-awareness-and of spontaneously grasping

(C) dolphins to be capable of recognizing themselves in mirrors-an ability that is often considered a sign of self-wareness-and to grasp spontaneously

(D) that dolphins have the ability of recognizing themselves in mirrors-an ability that is often considered as a sign of self-awareness-and spontaneously grasping

(E) that dolphins are capable of recognizing themselves in mirrors-an ability that is often considered a sign of self-wareness-and of spontaneously grasping

Referring the link: http://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/post30983.html

I picked up the concept that "capability of VERBing" and "Capability in VERBing" as unidiomatic, but that doesn't seem to be the case in the above problem. Is that because of presence of "themselves" ??

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BastiG Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
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Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:49 pm
loveusonu wrote:
The results of two recent unrelated studies support the idea that dolphins may share certain cognitive abilities with humans and great apes; the studies indicate dolphins as capable of recognizing themselves in mirrors-an ability that is often considered a sign of self-awareness-and to grasp spontaneously the mood or intention of humans.

(A) dolphins as capable of recognizing themselves in mirrors-an ability that is often considered a sign of self-awareness-and to grasp spontaneously

(B) dolphins’ ability to recognize themselves in mirrors-an ability that is often considered as a sign of self-awareness-and of spontaneously grasping

(C) dolphins to be capable of recognizing themselves in mirrors-an ability that is often considered a sign of self-wareness-and to grasp spontaneously

(D) that dolphins have the ability of recognizing themselves in mirrors-an ability that is often considered as a sign of self-awareness-and spontaneously grasping

(E) that dolphins are capable of recognizing themselves in mirrors-an ability that is often considered a sign of self-wareness-and of spontaneously grasping

Referring the link: http://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/post30983.html

I picked up the concept that "capability of VERBing" and "Capability in VERBing" as unidiomatic, but that doesn't seem to be the case in the above problem. Is that because of presence of "themselves" ??
This is the way I attacked the question:
I saw the split without/with that. Indicate needs "that" so I ruled out A,B,C

ability of is unidiomatic

So I choose answer E.

I think you can say capable of verbING but not capability of verbING.
I saw the split in the question: without that/with that
Indicate needs that so ruled out A,B,C

deeyah Junior | Next Rank: 30 Posts
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Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:42 pm
I go with option E because-

Indicate that ...
Capable of recognising themselves in the mirror -an ability that is often considered a sign of self-wareness-and of spontaneously grasping

gmat_perfect Legendary Member
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Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:02 pm
loveusonu wrote:
The results of two recent unrelated studies support the idea that dolphins may share certain cognitive abilities with humans and great apes; the studies indicate dolphins as capable of recognizing themselves in mirrors-an ability that is often considered a sign of self-awareness-and to grasp spontaneously the mood or intention of humans.

(A) dolphins as capable of recognizing themselves in mirrors-an ability that is often considered a sign of self-awareness-and to grasp spontaneously

(B) dolphins’ ability to recognize themselves in mirrors-an ability that is often considered as a sign of self-awareness-and of spontaneously grasping

(C) dolphins to be capable of recognizing themselves in mirrors-an ability that is often considered a sign of self-wareness-and to grasp spontaneously

(D) that dolphins have the ability of recognizing themselves in mirrors-an ability that is often considered as a sign of self-awareness-and spontaneously grasping

(E) that dolphins are capable of recognizing themselves in mirrors-an ability that is often considered a sign of self-wareness-and of spontaneously grasping

Referring the link: http://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/post30983.html

I picked up the concept that "capability of VERBing" and "Capability in VERBing" as unidiomatic, but that doesn't seem to be the case in the above problem. Is that because of presence of "themselves" ??
Here, I go.

Studies indicate..............that is the correct form. We are between D and E.

In D, ability ------------to should have been correct.

E is correct for two reasons:

1. A sign of X and of Y----is correct parallelism.
2. Capable of doing something ---is the correct expression.

loveusonu Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts
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Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:26 am
Thanks guys for providing different & unique ways to reach OA.
My question was regarding the usage of this structure "Capability of VERBing" / "Capable of VERBing"

gmat_perfect, could you please elaborate?

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Thu Sep 02, 2010 11:04 am
its E

capable always take of and ability take to

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Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:14 am
i don't understand the discussion of "capability" in this thread, considering that the word "capability" appears nowhere in the prompt, nor does it appear in any of the answer choices. how did we get onto the subject of "capability"?

the correct idioms are "capable of VERBing" and "ability to VERB". the obverse versions -- "capable to VERB" and "ability of VERBing" -- are incorrect.

gmat_perfect wrote:
Studies indicate..............that is the correct form. We are between D and E.
this isn't the only correct form; you can also say that "NOUN indicate(s) X", where X is a noun. for instance, you can say "this test indicates that the drug is present", but you can also say "this test indicates the presence of the drug".
therefore, (b) is also fine here ("indicate dolphins' ability"), though it is somewhat awkward.

Quote:
1. A sign of X and of Y----is correct parallelism.
nope. those aren't the parallel elements; that's a completely random coincidence.
the parallel elements are "of recognizing" and "of ... grasping".

remember that [b]parallel elements must be PARALLEL IDEAS -- they must be two of the same type of thing/action/idea.
"(of) recogniz(ing)" is something that dolphins can do.
"(of) grasp(ing)" is also something that dolphins can do.
therefore, these are the parallel elements.

"of self-awareness" and "of grasping" are completely different things -- one refers to the meaning of a sign, while the other is an action that dolphins can carry out -- so it makes no sense to consider these as parallel elements.

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Tue Sep 14, 2010 3:43 pm
Answer choice D "(D) that dolphins have the ability of recognizing themselves in mirrors -- an ability that is often considered as a sign of self-awareness -- and spontaneously grasping" , why we say that it does not follow the parallelism ?

Can't we read it like this and in this case these elements are parallel:
dolphins have the ability of
recognizing themselves in mirrors
(and) spontaneously grasping

I do understand ,though, that "have the ability of" is wordy in GMATVille .

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Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:30 am
Answer choice D "(D) that dolphins have the ability of recognizing themselves in mirrors -- an ability that is often considered as a sign of self-awareness -- and spontaneously grasping" , why we say that it does not follow the parallelism ?

Can't we read it like this and in this case these elements are parallel:
dolphins have the ability of
recognizing themselves in mirrors
(and) spontaneously grasping
this is correct; the parallelism in choice (d) is flawless.
the problem with (d) is idiomatic -- there are two incorrect idioms in that choice.

Quote:
I do understand ,though, that "have the ability of" is wordy in GMATVille .
nope. the issue isn't "wordiness" -- this is actually an incorrect idiom. (note that there are indeed some choices that are "wordy", but "wordiness" will never, ever, be the only thing that's wrong with a choice.)
the correct version is "the ability TO (VERB)".
the incorrect version is "the ability OF (VERBing)".
pure idiom issue -- notice that the correct and incorrect versions have exactly the same number of words, so wordiness doesn't enter into the equation at all.

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Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:30 am
by the way

the other idiom error in choice (d) is "considered as a sign". you don't want the "as" in there; that's an incorrect meaning.

if you mean to say that X is classified as a Y, then you just say "X is considered Y". (alternatively, you can say "X is considered to be Y", although that extended version isn't normally used unless the former results in ambiguity or difficult language.)
if that's the intended meaning, then it's incorrect to write "X is considered as Y".

on the other hand, you can use "considered as" in a different context: namely, if you mean to say that you are only considering a certain aspect of something/someone.
for instance, let's say that there's an absolutely horrible piece of art called "The Stand", but that this horrible piece of art also makes a profound political statement. (i'm just making this up -- i have no knowledge of any actual art by this name.)
then you can write:
"the stand" is entirely worthless when considered as a work of art, but of historical importance when considered as a political statement.

i haven't seen this use of "considered as" on the actual gmat, but it can't hurt to be aware of its existence.

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Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:18 pm
@Ron -> thank you so much for as always wonderful explanations . I wonder why we do not have a verbal OG companion by you ? I am serious about it . Almost all my doubts in all topics (especially comparison and modifier) are addressed by your post on Manhattan site.

Special thanks for explanation of "Consider" as it is mentioned here and there but nobody cared to explane proper usage.

Between why I asked question about D ; explanation by OG is wierd . (OG diagnositc test , Q# 8 ,page# 95)

Have the ability of is wordy and unidiomatic;of recognizing and spontaneously grasping are not parallel.

And second question : How can we deal with logic questions efficientgly without loosin time ? Logic questions means when GMAC playes based on logic of meaning .

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Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:42 am
@Ron -> thank you so much for as always wonderful explanations . I wonder why we do not have a verbal OG companion by you ? I am serious about it :) . Almost all my doubts in all topics (especially comparison and modifier) are addressed by your post on Manhattan site.

Special thanks for explanation of "Consider" as it is mentioned here and there but nobody cared to explane proper usage.

Between why I asked question about D ; explanation by OG is wierd . (OG diagnositc test , Q# 8 ,page# 95)

Have the ability of is wordy and unidiomatic;of recognizing and spontaneously grasping are not parallel.
yeah, well, this is just incorrect. (there are actually quite a few OG answer explanations that are incorrect; it's quite obvious that they had their more talented writers write the problems, while relegating the answer explanations to their less talented writers. this is unfortunate, but it's certainly better than it would be if it were the other way around!)

choice (d) is parallel if you just don't include the word "of" in the first parallel structure. (you don't have to; there's no signal word in front of it, so you can begin the left-hand parallel structure in any place that makes sense.)
i.e., if you process (d) as
the ability of
recognizing ...
and
(spontaneously) grasping ...

then it's perfectly parallel.
of course, "ability of VERBing" is still an incorrect idiomatic usage, but the problem is not an issue of parallelism.

Quote:
And second question : How can we deal with logic questions efficientgly without loosin time ? Logic questions means when GMAC playes based on logic of meaning .
well, you should always address any existing grammar issues first; if the sentence has poor grammar or incorrect usage, then the meaning of the sentence doesn't matter (since it's wrong).
if you have two or more sentences that are both/all correct, then you need to start thinking about meaning.

unfortunately, there aren't going to be any consistent mechanical rules for figuring this out.
in other words, if you are asking, "can i use mechanics to figure out the logical meaning of a sentence and/or whether that meaning is reasonable?" then the answer is no. you just have to think, "what is this sentence trying to say, literally? does it make sense?"

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Thu Sep 16, 2010 2:33 pm
Thanks Ron , at least I am comfortable after your confirmation of answer choice D ; I was scared of my concepts otherwise.

Quote:
unfortunately, there aren't going to be any consistent mechanical rules for figuring this out.
in other words, if you are asking, "can i use mechanics to figure out the logical meaning of a sentence and/or whether that meaning is reasonable?" then the answer is no. you just have to think, "what is this sentence trying to say, literally? does it make sense?
After going through your SC session in two thursdays 'by the way it was a paradigm shift for me' , I already solved questions in context and FYI, it has helped mea lot . I HIGHLY recommend those two classes at least for everyone. (cf May 14th class ) .

Between, thursday videos miss subject next to them , it just gives the date for title .

But still, at times you want to move fast and one of the ways to solve question faster is to search mechnically for grammer errors ;i solved few SCs and one good example of logic question is ; I missed it as I did solve it partially mechanically and partially context based. But the question requires comlete go through of answer choices.

Recently documented examples of neurogenesis, the production of new brain cells, include the brain growing in mice when placed in a stimulating environment or neurons increasing in canaries that learn new songs.

(A) the brain growing in mice when placed in a stimulating environment or neurons increasing in canaries that
(B) mice whose brains grow when they are placed in a stimulating environment or canaries whose neurons increase when they
(C) mice's brains that grow when they are placed in a stimulating environment or canaries' neurons that increase when they
(D) the brain growth in mice when placed in a stimulating environment or the increase in canaries' neurons when they
(E) brain growth in mice that are placed in a stimulating environment or an increase in neurons in canaries that

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Fri Sep 17, 2010 12:20 am
hey --

Thanks Ron , at least I am comfortable after your confirmation of answer choice D ; I was scared of my concepts otherwise.
sure.
hey, at least you're actually using official problems.
there are just way too many problems on this board, without any sort of citation or attribution, that are just awful -- frankly, it's nice to see someone actually submitting official problems for once!

Quote:
After going through your SC session in two thursdays 'by the way it was a paradigm shift for me' , I already solved questions in context and FYI, it has helped mea lot . I HIGHLY recommend those two classes at least for everyone. (cf May 14th class ) .
thanks for the kind words.

Quote:
Between, thursday videos miss subject next to them , it just gives the date for title .
if you PM me i'll send you a list of the session topics. i'm going to submit this to the webmasters pretty soon, but, if you want a list of topics before then, send a pm.

Quote:
But still, at times you want to move fast and one of the ways to solve question faster is to search mechnically for grammer errors ;i solved few SCs and one good example of logic question is ; I missed it as I did solve it partially mechanically and partially context based. But the question requires comlete go through of answer choices.
well, sure.

incidentally, this issue is probably the exact inverse of the main problem faced by native english speakers taking this test.
native speakers will tend in the opposite direction -- they will usually look at the meaning of the sentence first (since this is what you process first when you read things in your first language), only after which they think to check small nuances of grammar.
since the hierarchy on this exam clearly favors grammar -- i.e., you eliminate sentences that are grammatically incorrect first, and only consider meaning if you wind up with two or more “survivors” -- you are actually better off in this respect than are many native speakers of english.
the flipside, of course, is that the native speakers make up for this imbalance by reading the sentences (and comprehending their meaning) faster than you can.

by the way, i don't like the use of "or" in this problem -- it seems strange to me to say “examples include X or Y”.
fortunately, this is the same across all five options** and so we can ignore it, but the sentence would clearly be better written if “and” were substituted for “or”.

**this is probably why they left "or" in there; since it's not a difference between the answer choices, they probably didn't think twice about it.

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Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:20 am
Many many thanks. I have PMed you not sure by when it will be delivered as it shows in outbox for days .

I am trying to change a little in approach in which I focus more on complete meaning , let's see how it goes . I will keep you posted.

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