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by lunarpower » Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:33 pm
ChrisBKnewton wrote:One issue I do want to address: it's not the case that your Knewton CATs are copies of questions you'll find in the OG. Our practice tests are designed to predict how you'd perform on test day, which they wouldn't be able to do if they mirrored the actual exam too closely. Since the GMAT uses certain question structures again and again, though, some practice problems will naturally be built on those foundations. This is really how all practice CATs are designed -- if they weren't, they wouldn't provide good practice for test day!
well, i don't want to derail this thread too much, but my experience is that the degree of similarity is tremendous. admittedly, my sample size is rather small -- i've only seen the problems that have been posted here on this forum -- but the majority of those problems have been identical in structure to their counterparts in the official materials.

for instance:
https://www.beatthegmat.com/knewton-sc-t79213.html
versus this GMATPrep problem
https://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/som ... t4380.html

and
https://www.beatthegmat.com/knewton-sc-vr-3-t66916.html
versus this GMATPrep problem
https://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/sc- ... t5272.html

i've seen this in most of the (admittedly rather few) problems i've seen on here. if a majority of the test is structured this way, it will definitely lead to inflation for students who have already seen the corresponding GMATPrep or OG problems.
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by bkw » Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:47 pm
lunarpower wrote:
bkw wrote:Thanks for extensive feedback Ron. I really have to try to write couple of the suggestions on paper and look at them daily to get used to it.
To be honest I haven't started any SC till now with meaning as first priority. I guess this is something I need to get used to as a non native. Especially when SC sentences get longer, it will take you time to read and understand the meaning so I think that is why it is so easy to try to rush in to finding grammar errors in the meaning without actually caring too much about what it is trying to say.
this is interesting -- i think it's probably more a function of the way in which you approach things than of the fact that you are a non-native speaker of the language. in particular, if you work in IT or some related industry, then you probably approach everything else in your professional life from a strictly analytical standpoint, so that sort of perspective is just carrying over into your treatment of the sentences.
in addition, it's well known that people don't tend to employ "common sense" in classroom settings (as a general rule, even -- perhaps even especially -- in the case of very smart people). the meaning of the sentence is completely a common-sense issue -- i.e., there are no rules for determining the intended meaning of a sentence, especially if that sentence is written incorrectly -- and as a result is outside the scope of what many students think about in "academic" settings like this one.
Just to make sure I understood your reply here :roll: Is your recommendation to ALWAYS read for meaning (try to understand what the sentence try to say) first, then look for errors in the text, and look at the answer choices etc? Does this mean that it is best to ignore looking for errors when reading first, or should both meaning and spotting errors be made on the first readthrough?

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by beatthegmat » Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:06 pm
Thanks everyone for this great discussion! Really enjoying the analysis on this thread by everyone.

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by satishvis » Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:02 am
This is one of the best discussions I have come across in this forum. What Ron says is pure common sense and I think the same fate would have awaited me had I not followed this post. There is too much material out there. We have to filter that and get down to the few concepts that matter. Quant, one can still manage if one has a good base; SC is something one can't get all right and nor should one try to.

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by bkw » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:14 am
When you feel crap after having been beaten by the GMAT, please watch this video and listen carefully to what Jose@Knewton say about scoring well on the GMAT.

:arrow: Never give up!

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Jose is the founder of Knewton. I found this video encouraging because he really points out the importance of understanding the structure of the test and that one has to spend a reasonable amount of time on practice to score well. Notice that Knewton has permitted me to publish this video.

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by David@VeritasPrep » Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:36 pm
Got a PM to respond specifically to the question of improvement and the possibility of getting to the neighborhood of a 600...

Don't give up is important - but don't keep doing the same things and expect a different result, either.

I would reiterate much of what Ron has said. I find it difficult to even post to the sentence correction boards. When I teach sentence correction and when I personally do sentence correction questions it is not about the minuscule rules that are being discussed every day on that board!

Here is my suggestion: Ask yourself - what is the GMAT for? This can take you to a much better place People are posting thousands of postings to Beat the GMAT looking at the tiniest little pieces of grammar. Do the business schools seriously hope to catch you without knowledge of some specific rule of grammar? NO!! Contrary to what people seem to think, business schools are not producing copy-editors they are producing DECISION - MAKERS.

Please frame the things that you see on the GMAT on the basis of what this says about you to the Business Schools in terms of your ability to make decisions.

Look at the two iconic and frustrating aspects of the GMAT - sentence correction and data sufficiency. These are tests of decision making (perhaps even more so than the rest of the exam). So what is Sentence correction really testing? Your ability to sort through a long sentence and identify the choices that you need to make as well as the information that is required to make those decisions. Look at something like the difference between verbs or pronouns. The key information is the subject for that verb to agree with or the antecedent for that noun.

Sentence correction is about sorting through the clutter to focus on what really matters in the sentence!

How ironic that in studying for sentence correction most people start with memorization and fail to sort through the clutter and actually study what matters!! It is like the GMAT has found a way to play the perfect joke on people. Only the GMAT is not playing the tricks, the individual test-takers are.

Sentence correction should start with strategy, a reliable technique, and an understanding that it is all about your ability to prioritize within the sentence, recognize what is important and act efficiently.

Understanding the meaning...this is essential to one of the basic points of sentence correction - Logic. You can eliminate many, many answer choices because the modifier placement or comparison would not be logical.

That is just one example. I just think that people fight too hard, memorize too much, and never get to the big picture. If you can step back and put away your preconceptions then you can likely get above the average and possibly the score that you are looking for...but you cannot do more of the same and expect to make that kind of improvement. And I agree - in terms of resources, more is not always better.
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by bkw » Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:46 am
Thanks david! I am very grateful to your and Ron's replies.

I do need to improve my English language both in understanding meaning and in reading speed. Therefore, I will try to read WSJ/sciam a while on daily basis and I am now waiting for my 15 Veritas books which I will use to methodically go through the concepts and practice from scratch.

Probably it is much harder working SC with meaning in mind for non natives than it is for Americans. I mean subtle changes in sentence can sometimes give me no more clue on whether the meaning has changed or not. So, instead one start with only looking for grammatical structures. I mean I could probably do better reading in my own language than in american. However, these things are no excuses and I will have to remember to more read for meaning.

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by lunarpower » Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:39 am
bkw wrote:Probably it is much harder working SC with meaning in mind for non natives than it is for Americans.
i don't think this is true at all -- i think that it has much, much more to do with your educational and occupational background.
i.e., if you think about grammar before meaning, it's *not* because you're reading something in your second language (see below); rather, it's because that's how your background has trained you to read things.
for instance, some huge proportion of people on here work in engineering/IT, in which "reading" means...
... going through things with lots and lots of technical detail
... stopping to pore over the meaning of every little term that you come across
... figuring out how lots of little details are related to each other
and, most importantly,
... NOT thinking about the "big picture"!
as an illustration of this last -- consider the engineers who work on, say, the electric portion of an Iphone screen that's responsible for detecting the touch of a finger.
these people are responsible *only* for details; the entire design of the phone, and the MEANING or PURPOSE for which people are going to use their finger, are entirely and utterly irrelevant to them.
as a result, when the same people analyze a sentence, they are naturally going to analyze the sentence in the same way -- component by component, seeing how all the little components fit together, without stopping to think about the meaning of the sentence. it has nothing whatsoever to do with language; it has to do with internal consistency. someone who spends all day long thinking about little details is not magically going to think about the big picture without deliberate effort.
this is totally independent of the 1st language / 2nd language issue.

in fact, for 2nd language speakers it should be much harder to think about grammar, and therefore 2nd language speakers should be thinking even MORE about meaning!
here's what i mean:
it's usually pretty easy to figure out the meaning of a sentence, even if the grammar has been completely butchered. for example, if i write
"freeway accident on, me behind, late two hours of margin at least"
... not a single piece of the grammar of this sentence is correct, but its meaning is still completely obvious: i'm sitting behind an accident on the freeway and i'm going to be late by at least 2 hours.
if you aren't a native speaker of english you may not be able to fix the sentence perfectly, but it's not any more difficult to determine the meaning.
given that this is the case, it's suboptimal for second-language speakers to go after the grammar first -- because grammar of any foreign language is always ridiculously difficult, while meanings tend to be fairly universal and are usually pretty easy to pick up on.

i personally am proof that the 2nd language thing isn't the issue: when i read things in spanish or finnish (my 2nd languages) i think entirely about the big-picture meaning first, because that's the way i usually think about everything else in my world.
i'll see a bunch of words and instantly think, "what the heck does this mean?"
i probably don't know 30-40% of the grammatical structures -- and there are lots of words, especially nouns, that i don't know -- but i can still determine the meaning of almost everything that i come across.

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the reason i've written on this at length is because everyone here is trying to get into business school and become managers.
and guess what...
...management is ALMOST ENTIRELY BIG PICTURE THINKING.

the huge change in mindset that will take you from "grammar grammar grammar" to "what does this mean?" is EXACTLY THE SAME CHANGE IN MINDSET that is REQUIRED if you are to become a successful manager.
if you think like a micro-component engineer, then you can be a very good micro-component engineer, but it's pretty much impossible to be a successful manager with the same super-detail-oriented, non-big-picture way of looking at things.

this is also the reason why the gmat includes so many things that are invariably meaning-based, like modifiers, pronouns, and so on ... and, more importantly, the reason why it DOESN'T test things that are purely micro components, like spelling, punctuation, or a/an/the.
think about it.
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