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Subjunctive-senior officials

by Anial » Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:52 pm
Several senior officials spoke to the press on condition name that they not be named in the story.
(A) that they not be named
(B) that their names will not be used
(C) that their names are not used
(D) of not being named
(E) they will not be named
OA A
1.Is n't the subjective is used after verbs expressing some kind of wish,recommendations,proposals,desire,regret,doubt or demand when there is a certain degree of uncertainilty attached to it?
2.Why is above sentence in subjunctive mode?
3.Will the structure (noun + that.... i.e Condition + that...) automatically invokes subjunctive? I read somewhere in the forum that (on the condition that) invokes the subjunctive in that clause.Is it correct?
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by bpgen » Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:42 pm
You are correct! This sentence is in subjunctive mood as "on the condition that" invokes the subjunctive in the "that" clause. Hence, "that they not be named" would be the option.
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by Anial » Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:04 pm
So will the structure (noun + that) always invoke subjunctive?

Am I missing something, and I don't sense any kind of uncertainty in above sentence?
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by lunarpower » Sun Mar 21, 2010 1:58 am
there are actually two different kinds of subjunctive, which you are conflating in this example.

the first type of subjunctive is the COMMAND SUBJUNCTIVE.
the subjunctive is used for commands, requests, requirements, stipulations, proposals, statements of importance, and other similar situations.
in the command subjunctive, the subjunctive verb MUST be preceded by the word "THAT".
here are some examples:
it is important that you BE on time.
the officer demanded that his lieutenant BEGIN drills 15 minutes earlier.
the head of the committee proposed that the meeting BE postponed by one week.

in this type of subjunctive, there is absolutely no requirement of doubt or uncertainty. in fact, in most of these situations -- especially those involving commands or statements of importance -- the context is, if anything, rather certain.

--

the other type of subjunctive, with which you are conflating the meaning of the first one, is the HYPOTHETICAL SUBJUNCTIVE.

this is the one that describes hypothetical situations contrary to actual reality.

here are some examples:
if i were a bird, i would fly over all this traffic.
were he able to repeat his college experience, peter would be more serious about his studies.

the use of the subjunctive to represent a doubt or uncertainty is mainly considered archaic, and is extremely unlikely to be tested on the gmat.
e.g., i shall believe in his innocence, whether or not he be found guilty --> this is shakespearean-type language, and would be considered incorrect on the gmat. instead, in this case, the normal (indicative) verb is used in modern english: whether or not he is found guilty.
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by Anial » Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:25 am
lunarpower wrote:there are actually two different kinds of subjunctive, which you are conflating in this example.

the first type of subjunctive is the COMMAND SUBJUNCTIVE.
the subjunctive is used for commands, requests, requirements, stipulations, proposals, statements of importance, and other similar situations.
in the command subjunctive, the subjunctive verb MUST be preceded by the word "THAT".
here are some examples:
it is important that you BE on time.
the officer demanded that his lieutenant BEGIN drills 15 minutes earlier.
the head of the committee proposed that the meeting BE postponed by one week.

in this type of subjunctive, there is absolutely no requirement of doubt or uncertainty. in fact, in most of these situations -- especially those involving commands or statements of importance -- the context is, if anything, rather certain.

--

the other type of subjunctive, with which you are conflating the meaning of the first one, is the HYPOTHETICAL SUBJUNCTIVE.

this is the one that describes hypothetical situations contrary to actual reality.

here are some examples:
if i were a bird, i would fly over all this traffic.
were he able to repeat his college experience, peter would be more serious about his studies.

the use of the subjunctive to represent a doubt or uncertainty is mainly considered archaic, and is extremely unlikely to be tested on the gmat.
e.g., i shall believe in his innocence, whether or not he be found guilty --> this is shakespearean-type language, and would be considered incorrect on the gmat. instead, in this case, the normal (indicative) verb is used in modern english: whether or not he is found guilty.
Thanks Ron
Last edited by Anial on Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:40 am, edited 3 times in total.
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by lunarpower » Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:29 am
Anial wrote:Ron,
Thanks for your help.I just got one more doubt.

1.For many people, household labor remains demanding even if they can afford household appliances their grandparents would have found miraculous.

2.A consumer may not think of household cleaning products as hazardous substances, but many of them can be harmful to health, especially if they are used improperly.

3.Unlike the premiums for auto insurance, the premiums for personal property coverage are not affected by the frequency of claims, but if the insurance company is able to prove excessive loss due to owner negligence, it may decline to renew the policy.
i think you forgot to type your question here. what is your question?
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by Anial » Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:34 am
lunarpower wrote:
Anial wrote:Ron,
Thanks for your help.I just got one more doubt.

1.For many people, household labor remains demanding even if they can afford household appliances their grandparents would have found miraculous.

2.A consumer may not think of household cleaning products as hazardous substances, but many of them can be harmful to health, especially if they are used improperly.

3.Unlike the premiums for auto insurance, the premiums for personal property coverage are not affected by the frequency of claims, but if the insurance company is able to prove excessive loss due to owner negligence, it may decline to renew the policy.
i think you forgot to type your question here. what is your question?
Sorry,I forgot to type the question.
For sentences below

1.For many people, household labor remains demanding even if they can afford household appliances their grandparents would have found miraculous.

2.A consumer may not think of household cleaning products as hazardous substances, but many of them can be harmful to health, especially if they are used improperly.

3.Unlike the premiums for auto insurance, the premiums for personal property coverage are not affected by the frequency of claims, but if the insurance company is able to prove excessive loss due to owner negligence, it may decline to renew the policy.

1.Are n't they conditional statements? and is n't it like
ALL THE CONDITIONALS ARE SUBJUNCTIVE BUT ALL SUBJUNCTIVE ARE NOT CONDITIONALS.
2.If so why do they not have the standard structure (as Conditional 1 ,Conditional II and conditional III)
3. Is there a different rule for the conditionals which are not hypothetical?
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by bhumika.k.shah » Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:56 am
Anial wrote: 1.Are n't they conditional statements? and is n't it like
ALL THE CONDITIONALS ARE SUBJUNCTIVE BUT ALL SUBJUNCTIVE ARE NOT CONDITIONALS.
2.If so why do they not have the standard structure (as Conditional 1 ,Conditional II and conditional III)
3. Is there a different rule for the conditionals which are not hypothetical?
good questions anial
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by lunarpower » Sat Apr 24, 2010 2:29 am
bhumika.k.shah wrote:
Anial wrote: 1.Are n't they conditional statements? and is n't it like
ALL THE CONDITIONALS ARE SUBJUNCTIVE BUT ALL SUBJUNCTIVE ARE NOT CONDITIONALS.
2.If so why do they not have the standard structure (as Conditional 1 ,Conditional II and conditional III)
3. Is there a different rule for the conditionals which are not hypothetical?
good questions anial
i think the problem here is that you are confusing two meanings of the word "conditional".

(1) the word "conditional" can be used, in general, to refer to IF-THEN type sentences.
this is a convention of formal logic; it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with grammar, and is thus irrelevant to sentence correction.
i.e., when you study formal logic, you refer to the entire sentence "if X, then Y" as a "conditional".

(2) there are also "conditional tenses". these are the tenses that contain the helping verb "would".
these tenses are often (i can't think of any exceptions right now, but i'm hesitant to say "always") paired with subjunctives, in the following way: IF (subjunctive), THEN (conditional)
note that this is the construction of a couple of the examples i gave above. for instance,
if i were a bird, i would fly over all this traffic

i don't know what you mean by "conditional I/II/III". please clarify, thanks.

--

the reason why all three of those sentences are correct -- i.e., the reason why they don't have to use subjunctive constructions -- is because they describe ACTUAL POSSIBILITIES. you don't put these sorts of sentences into the subjunctive unless, as mentioned in my post above, the sentences are describing hypothetical situations that are contrary to reality. that's not the case in any of these three.

for instance:
lets say you're considering a situation in which an insurance company was, in point of fact, NOT able to prove excessive loss due to owner negligence.
in this case, you would use the hypothetical subjunctive, as follows:
if the insurance had been able to prove excessive loss due to owner negligence, it might/would have declined to renew the policy
(1st verb is subjunctive, 2nd is conditional)

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by lunarpower » Sat Apr 24, 2010 2:29 am
an external, but important, comment:

re: all these questions about the conditional, etc.

i think the questions that you're asking betray a set of priorities that is mismatched to the demands of this exam.

in particular, you seem to place extreme emphasis on being able to CLASSIFY and NAME every grammatical structure, in every sentence.
what you've absolutely got to realize is this:
it doesn't really matter whether you can classify or name the structures at all -- all that matters is whether you can RECOGNIZE their forms as correct/incorrect (this is all you ever have to do in sentence correction).

therefore,
* IF you just realize that your sentences #1, #2, and #3 are correct --
and
* IF you are able to make the connection between these three and other sentences that look like them, thus concluding that those other sentences are also correct
-- then you already have all the skills that you need, and all these questions about grammatical names/nomenclature are basically just a waste of your time (at least as far as the gmat is concerned).
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

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