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GMATMadeEasy: Legendary Member; Posts: 768; Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:46 am; Thanked: 21 times; Followed by:7 members

OG12 - sequence of tenses (70)

by GMATMadeEasy » Mon May 16, 2011 9:45 am

His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine homeland, far outside the range of present-day
glaciers, led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the concept of an age in which great ice sheets had
existed in now currently temperate areas.

(A) in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas
(B) in which great ice sheets existed in what are now temperate areas
(C) when great ice sheets existed where there were areas now temperate
(D) when great ice sheets had existed in current temperate areas
(E) when great ice sheets existed in areas now that are temperate

OA is B

Could someone explain why we do not use past perfect in the correct answer ? ice sheets existed before the second action in PAST happened (led him to propose a theory)

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Source: Beat The GMAT — Sentence Correction | Mon May 16, 2011 9:45 am

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by GMATGuruNY » Mon May 16, 2011 11:06 am

GMATMadeEasy wrote:His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine homeland, far outside the range of present-day
glaciers, led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the concept of an age in which great ice sheets had
existed in now currently temperate areas.

(A) in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas
(B) in which great ice sheets existed in what are now temperate areas
(C) when great ice sheets existed where there were areas now temperate
(D) when great ice sheets had existed in current temperate areas
(E) when great ice sheets existed in areas now that are temperate

OA is B

Could someone explain why we do not use past perfect in the correct answer ? ice sheets existed before the second action in PAST happened (led him to propose a theory)

The use of the past perfect implies -- incorrectly -- that the great ice sheets had existed before the age. Since the great ice sheets existed during the age, the regular past tense is needed.

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sameerballani: Legendary Member; Posts: 544; Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:10 am; Thanked: 45 times; Followed by:2 members

by sameerballani » Tue May 17, 2011 7:59 am

GMATMadeEasy wrote:His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine homeland, far outside the range of present-day glaciers, led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the concept of an age in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas.
(A) in which great ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas
(B) in which great ice sheets existed in what are now temperate areas
(C) when great ice sheets existed where there were areas now temperate
(D) when great ice sheets had existed in current temperate areas
(E) when great ice sheets existed in areas now that are temperate
OA is B
Could someone explain why we do not use past perfect in the correct answer ? ice sheets existed before the second action in PAST happened (led him to propose a theory)

Everything written after in which modifies/describes the proposed age. And that means the ice sheets existed in the that proposed age only not before that. So we need to maintain the same tense.

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by lunarpower » Wed May 18, 2011 1:21 am

GMATGuru has basically answered the original question, but i'll note that there is a much easier way to eliminate choice (a) -- namely, the inclusion of the two identical words "now" and "currently" right next to each other.

(usually, they do a better job of hiding redundancy than this)

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GMATMadeEasy: Legendary Member; Posts: 768; Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:46 am; Thanked: 21 times; Followed by:7 members

by GMATMadeEasy » Wed May 18, 2011 5:09 am

thanks a lot .

And in the question below, how do we justify the correct answer A.

The prehistoric monument Stonehenge is believed to have been erected around 2200BC, and has attracted the attention of many archeologists, among them John Aubrey, who believed that the landscape surrounding the site was used by the Druids for religious ceremonies.

A. who believed that the landscape surrounding the site was used by the Druids
B. who, believing the landscape surrounding the site was used by the Druids
C. who, when he had believed that the landscape surrounding the site was used by the Druids
D. who had believed that the landscape surrounding the site was used by the Druids
E. believing that the landscape surrounding the site was used by the Druids

Would A be incorrect if we wrote it this way :

who believed that the landscape surrounding the site had been used by the Druids . Here we have clearly communicated that John Aubrey believed in the past about something in past before this past point . I understand this is meaning driven, but struggling to figure out how to infer the appropriate meaning in such cases -- two past events as given in the current example.

Thanks a lot.sorry if it s frustrating to explain so subtle thing.

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by lunarpower » Thu May 19, 2011 4:27 pm

GMATMadeEasy wrote:Would A be incorrect if we wrote it this way :

who believed that the landscape surrounding the site had been used by the Druids . Here we have clearly communicated that John Aubrey believed in the past about something in past before this past point . I understand this is meaning driven, but struggling to figure out how to infer the appropriate meaning in such cases -- two past events as given in the current example.

Thanks a lot.sorry if it s frustrating to explain so subtle thing.

that version would work, too.

the difference is mostly one of emphasis -- "had been used" is meant to emphasize that it was no longer used that way by the time of the discovery/conclusion (i.e., that that particular phase of history has passed), while "was used" is meant to place it on a historical timeline without particular emphasis.
(this is not the sort of difference that will be tested, since both versions are acceptable.)

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GMATMadeEasy: Legendary Member; Posts: 768; Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:46 am; Thanked: 21 times; Followed by:7 members

by GMATMadeEasy » Mon May 23, 2011 5:37 am

Thanks. It makes sense and I see, what you mean here.

taking it little further, could we also say that in both the questions above, these are widely accepted events of past that remain true even today. hence, the usage of past perfect might suggest as if theories were not true today -- closely related to what you have mentioned in the post above? Could i say so for the usage of past perfect in such cases. i suppose this i also a point why many of non-native speaker sometimes do get lost with this particular tense.

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by lunarpower » Tue May 24, 2011 3:43 am

GMATMadeEasy wrote:Thanks. It makes sense and I see, what you mean here.

taking it little further, could we also say that in both the questions above, these are widely accepted events of past that remain true even today. hence, the usage of past perfect might suggest as if theories were not true today -- closely related to what you have mentioned in the post above? Could i say so for the usage of past perfect in such cases. i suppose this i also a point why many of non-native speaker sometimes do get lost with this particular tense.

i'm not sure i understand exactly what you're asking; perhaps you could construct some additional examples and then ask questions about those examples. (constructing your own examples will also be helpful in cementing your understanding in general.)

in general, note that the past perfect requires another past reference point.
in this sentence, that past reference point is "Aubrey believed" -- i.e., the past perfect is used relative to the (past) time at which Aubrey held this belief.

if there's no such past reference point, then you can't use the past perfect. for instance, it would be INCORRECT to write
scientists believe that this landscape had been used by the druids
by itself, because there's no past time reference anymore. in this case, you would just write "...was used by the druids".

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GMATMadeEasy: Legendary Member; Posts: 768; Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:46 am; Thanked: 21 times; Followed by:7 members

by GMATMadeEasy » Tue May 24, 2011 4:15 am

thanks Ron. I see here what is going on . let me isolate the situation :

My question is for a situation when we could use past perfect but would prefer past simple .

example -- modificaton of OG example -- . I modified the question this way to make the explanations above inapplicable.

His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine homeland led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the concept that ice sheets existed in now currently temperate areas.

His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine homeland led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the concept that ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas.

My overall understanding based on observations suggest that first example in this post is preferred for two reasons (either): a> "ice sheets existed bla bla" is a fact So usage of past perfect will suggest as if this fact (validity of the fact in the past) is not true today b> "led" and "existed" are two discrete events so we don't consider them related for the usage of past perfect.

Second one (b) I learnt from an expert's post i guess, but the definition of discrete events remains blurry when it comes to apply the same, so i want to refrain from using it. But let you comment for benefits of many.

Example of discrete events: (these are my findings/observations so need your counsel here to confirm

)

The company announced that its profits declined much less in the second quarter than analysts had expected it to and its business will improve in the second half of the year.
(Announced and declined are not related but declined and expected are.)

Following the same reasoning, believe is not related in the example under discussion in previous posts. You see the contradiction now.

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by lunarpower » Tue May 24, 2011 5:05 am

GMATMadeEasy wrote:thanks Ron. I see here what is going on . let me isolate the situation :

My question is for a situation when we could use past perfect but would prefer past simple .

example -- modificaton of OG example -- . I modified the question this way to make the explanations above inapplicable.

His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine homeland led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the concept that ice sheets existed in now currently temperate areas.

His studies of ice-polished rocks in his Alpine homeland led Louis Agassiz in 1837 to propose the concept that ice sheets had existed in now currently temperate areas.

upon further consideration, i don't think that the past perfect is acceptable in this sentence.
here's why:
the concept (which is independent of the time at which it was proposed) is that ice sheets existed in *now* temperate areas -- in other words, this is a concept that only refers to NOW vs. THE PAST, and contains no explicit past time reference upon which the usage of the past perfect can be based.

on the other hand, if the sentence were written in such a way that agassiz's 1837 proposal were the past time reference, then you *could* use the past perfect. for instance,
louis agassiz proposed in 1837 that ice sheets had existed... in areas that had become temperate.
--> this is a correct sentence; notice that both usages of the past perfect rely upon 1837 as the explicit past time reference.

because the original sentence doesn't relate "had existed" directly to another past point in time, "had existed" doesn't work.

--

Example of discrete events: (these are my findings/observations so need your counsel here to confirm :) )

The company announced that its profits declined much less in the second quarter than analysts had expected it to and its business will improve in the second half of the year.
(Announced and declined are not related but declined and expected are.)

you may want to go back and find the *correct* answer to this problem -- this one has all sorts of problems (e.g., "it" doesn't have an antecedent, "will improve" is inappropriate because the sentence is written in the past, etc.)

please post the correct answer; once you do, i'll help you analyze the tenses in that answer.

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GMATMadeEasy: Legendary Member; Posts: 768; Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:46 am; Thanked: 21 times; Followed by:7 members

by GMATMadeEasy » Tue May 24, 2011 5:37 am

Sorry, there you go:

The company announced that its profits declined much less in the second quarter than analysts had expected and that its business would improve in the second half of the year.

Full question OG12 Q# 139 just in case. OA is B. Idea is to indentify the situation clearly for sequence of tenses -- (Past simple V/S past perfect)

The company announced that its profits declined much less in the second quarter than analysts had
expected it to and its business will improve in the second half of the year.

(A) had expected it to and its business will improve
(8) had expected and that its business would improve
(C) expected it would and that it will improve its business
(D) expected them to and its business would improve
(E) expected and that it will have improved its business

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by lunarpower » Tue May 24, 2011 6:03 am

if your goal is to understand the use of these tenses in general, then a gmat forum is not the best place -- you will find more explanations (and much more complete ones) by simply googling terms such as "past perfect vs simple past" and then reading through several of the top results.

you should go ahead and do that, and then return to this problem once you've absorbed more general information about these tenses.

the short version, in this problem:
* the sentence is written from the standpoint of a particular past moment (the moment at which the company made the announcement)
* "had declined" is appropriate, because it makes reference to that exact past moment**
* "would improve" is the past tense of "will improve" -- i.e., this is the way in which you describe events that were in the future at the time described in the sentence.

**one way in which you can understand the past perfect is to realize that *most* past perfect usages would appear in the present perfect if written back when the action in the sentence was current.
for instance, if someone were writing when the company made the announcement, then that person would write
The announcement says that the profits have declined much less ...
since this person would have written in the present perfect at the time, that tense translates into the past perfect when the whole situation is moved into the past.

the above is just meant as an alternative way in which to understand the sentence -- it is *not* meant as any sort of complete explanation of how these tenses work. if you need that sort of thing, google is your best friend.

GMATMadeEasy wrote:Sorry, there you go:

The company announced that its profits declined much less in the second quarter than analysts had expected and that its business would improve in the second half of the year.

Full question OG12 Q# 139 just in case. OA is B. Idea is to indentify the situation clearly for sequence of tenses -- (Past simple V/S past perfect)

The company announced that its profits declined much less in the second quarter than analysts had
expected it to and its business will improve in the second half of the year.

(A) had expected it to and its business will improve
(8) had expected and that its business would improve
(C) expected it would and that it will improve its business
(D) expected them to and its business would improve
(E) expected and that it will have improved its business

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by GMATMadeEasy » Fri Jun 03, 2011 6:43 am

@Ron: i refreshed all tenses. Thanks for the idea in the above post. i got one more question from Manhattan CAT that can help to reinforce one point :

Geologists once thought that the molten rock known as lava was an underground remnant of Earth's earliest days, sporadically erupting through volcanoes, but they now know that it is continuously created by the heat of the radioactivity deep inside the planet.

A> was an underground remnant of Earth's earliest days, sporadically erupting
B> had been an underground remnant of Earth's earliest days and sporadically erupted
C> was an underground remnant of Earth's earliest days, which sporadically erupted
D> would be an underground remnant of Earth's earliest days that sporadically erupted
E> was an underground remnant of Earth's earliest days, having sporadically erupted

OA is A; I just want to understand why we do not use past perfect here because what they thought is after the fact mentioned in the sentence.Or rather i could say the fact mentioned and the action thought were at the same time , so past perfect is not justified.

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by sameerballani » Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:45 pm

GMATMadeEasy wrote:@Ron: i refreshed all tenses. Thanks for the idea in the above post. i got one more question from Manhattan CAT that can help to reinforce one point :

Geologists once thought that the molten rock known as lava was an underground remnant of Earth's earliest days, sporadically erupting through volcanoes, but they now know that it is continuously created by the heat of the radioactivity deep inside the planet.

A> was an underground remnant of Earth's earliest days, sporadically erupting
B> had been an underground remnant of Earth's earliest days and sporadically erupted
C> was an underground remnant of Earth's earliest days, which sporadically erupted
E> was an underground remnant of Earth's earliest days, having sporadically erupted

OA is A; I just want to understand why we do not use past perfect here because what they thought is after the fact mentioned in the sentence.Or rather i could say the fact mentioned and the action thought were at the same time , so past perfect is not justified.

It is what geologist use to think and hence it needs to be simple tense. Also the usage of once though shows that action was in past(not past of past)

What geologist thought is in PAST(action thought) and what is known now is in Present(the fact mentioned)

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by lunarpower » Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:47 am

GMATMadeEasy wrote: OA is A; I just want to understand why we do not use past perfect here because what they thought is after the fact mentioned in the sentence.Or rather i could say the fact mentioned and the action thought were at the same time , so past perfect is not justified.

we don't use the past perfect because that's what the geologists actually thought was true at that time.

if you wrote "they thought that X had been xxxxxx", then the implication is that they thought that X had *once* been xxxxxx, at some time previous to the time at which they had those thoughts.

e.g.

when i was a child, i thought that mickey mouse was president --> i thought that mickey mouse was actually president at the time i had these thoughts.
when i was a child, i thought that mickey mouse had been president --> i thought that mickey mouse had been a *previous* president.

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