comma+more than construction

[aditya8062]

sentence 1 :More than 300 rivers drain into Siberia's Lake Baikal, which holds 20 percent of the world's fresh water, more than all the North American Great Lakes combined.

sentence 2 :last summer my weight increased from 200 lbs to 220 lbs, more than twice as much as my little brother's

in sentence 1, the construction "comma+more than ...." seems to modify "hold", thereby acting as an adverbial modifier however in sentence 2 the construction "comma+more than....." seems to modify 220 lbs,thereby acting as adjectival modifier

please help me understand this difference .why a same kind of construction is acting differently? .what is the best way to understand such a difference in a short time ?
thanks and regards

[ilyana]

In sentence 1 "more than" modifies "20 percent of the world's fresh water". So it is a noun (adjectival) modifier.

[aditya8062]

In sentence 1 "more than" modifies "20 percent of the world's fresh water". So it is a noun (adjectival) modifier.

i doubt if this interpretation is true .we cannot say that "20 percent of the world's fresh water" is more than all the north American great lakes combined .the point that this construction is implying is that Siberia's Lake Baikal holds more fresh water than does all the North American Great Lakes combined,thereby making it adverbial !

[ilyana]

You are correct in implying that Siberia's Lake Baikal holds more fresh water than do all the North American Great Lakes combined, but it doesn't make "more than all the North American Great Lakes combined" an adverbial modifier.

Let's consider this:
More than 300 rivers drain into Siberia's Lake Baikal, which holds 20 percent of the world's fresh water OR (=equal to) more than all the North American Great Lakes combined.

What we get from this:

1) Lake Baikal holds 20 percent of the world's fresh water -- "20 percent of the world's fresh water" is the object of the verb "holds"

2) Lake Baikal holds more than all the North American Great Lakes combined -- "more than all the North American Great Lakes combined" is the object of the verb "holds".

Objects of verbs and adverbial modifiers are different things.
I like ice-cream. - "ice-cream" is an object. Without it the sentence doesn't make sense.
I run slowly. - "slowly" is an adverb. Its function is to describe the verb.

I see no crime in comparing "X percent of water" with "more that such and such lakes combined".

[GMATGuruNY]

sentence 1 :More than 300 rivers drain into Siberia's Lake Baikal, which holds 20 percent of the world's fresh water, more than all the North American Great Lakes combined.

sentence 2 :last summer my weight increased from 200 lbs to 220 lbs, more than twice as much as my little brother's

in sentence 1, the construction "comma+more than ...." seems to modify "hold", thereby acting as an adverbial modifier however in sentence 2 the construction "comma+more than....." seems to modify 220 lbs,thereby acting as adjectival modifier

please help me understand this difference .why a same kind of construction is acting differently? .what is the best way to understand such a difference in a short time ?
thanks and regards

More than 300 rivers drain into Siberia's Lake Baikal, which holds 20 percent of the world's fresh water, more than all the North American Great Lakes combined.
Here, the modifier in red is comparing how much fresh water each subject HOLDS:
Lake Baikal HOLDS more fresh water than all the North American Great Lakes combined HOLD.

Last summer my weight increased from 200 lbs to 220 lbs, more than twice as much as my little brother's.
Here, the modifier in red is comparing how much each subject INCREASED:
Last summer my weight INCREASED more than twice as much as little brother's weight INCREASED.

The function is the same in each case.
Don't worry about how to classify these modifiers.
Just understand how they FUNCTION.

[aditya8062]

ilyana with all due respect i feel that there is some differentiation that we need to discuss .
a noun modifier will be something that defines or elaborates a noun
for instance : the cat on the table is white in colour ----->here "on the table" describes the cat and hence is a noun modifier
however in the sentence under consideration :More than 300 rivers drain into Siberia's Lake Baikal, which holds 20 percent of the world's fresh water, more than all the North American Great Lakes combined.
the expression "more than all the North American Great Lakes combined" is not describing "world's fresh water" but this expression is further elaborating and comparing it with previous clause thus making it adverbial in nature
honestly i am not concerned in these funny names however i want to understand as why this very same construction is working differently in two sentences that i had mentioned in my first post

also have a look at this one :last summer my weight increased from 200 lbs to 220 lbs, more than twice as much as my little brother's
here i am inferring that my little brother weighs somewhere less that 110 lbs ---->thereby elaborating the figure of 220 lbs (making it a noun modifier )
now let me twist this sentence a little bit and call it sentence 3 :last summer my weight increased from 200 lbs to 220 lbs,an increment more than twice as much as my little brother's
here "an increment more than twice as much as my little brother's" will change the meaning of the sentence and also this construction is no more adjectival in nature .it has become adverbial now .
this new sentence is now comparing my increment with the increment of my little brother ---->thereby modifying "increased" (adverbial in nature)

i am waiting for GURU to explain as how i can do this analysis in short span of 1 min .

[aditya8062]

thanks a lot guru
i submitted my last post without knowing that you have already made the reply
kindly tell me if that is how sentence 2 is to be interpreted then is it that the construction "comma+more....."will always act as adverbial in nature

Don't worry about how to classify these modifiers.
Just understand how they FUNCTION.

GURU thanks for this advice but trust me i use names in questions just to make my doubt more lucid .my intention was to understand the functions of these modifier
thanks and regards

[ilyana]

for instance : the cat on the table is white in colour ----->here "on the table" describes the cat and hence is a noun modifier

sentence 1: More than 300 rivers drain into Siberia's Lake Baikal, which holds 20 percent of the world's fresh water, more than all the North American Great Lakes combined.
----- > in this sentence "more than all the North American Great Lakes combined" describes/qualifies/modifies "20 percent of the world's fresh water".

20 percent of the world's fresh water IS more than all the North American Great Lakes combined

"more than all the North American Great Lakes combined" does describe "20 percent of the world's fresh water".
We can make up a sentence:
20 percent of the world's fresh water, more than all the North American Great Lakes combined, is an impressive amount.

We can loosely call "20 percent of the world's fresh water" a noun, so "more than all the North American Great Lakes combined" is a noun modifier.



sentence 2: last summer my weight increased from 200 lbs to 220 lbs, more than twice as much as my little brother's
----- > in this sentence "more than twice as much as my little brother's" describes/qualifies/modifies "from 200 lbs to 220 lbs".

increase from 200 lbs to 220 lbs IS more than twice as much as my little brother's increase

"from 200 lbs to 220 lbs" is an adverbial modifier (it describes HOW my weight increased), so "more than twice as much as my little brother's" is also an adverbial modifier.

In spite of this fact, the functions of "more than"-phrases are similar in both sentences, yes.

kindly tell me if that is how sentence 2 is to be interpreted then is it that the construction "comma+more....."will always act as adverbial in nature

It won't always be adverbial (as seen from my explanation above).

now let me twist this sentence a little bit and call it sentence 3 :last summer my weight increased from 200 lbs to 220 lbs,an increment more than twice as much as my little brother's

I don't think that this sentence is correct.

[GMATGuruNY]

thanks a lot guru
i submitted my last post without knowing that you have already made the reply
kindly tell me if that is how sentence 2 is to be interpreted then is it that the construction "comma+more....."will always act as adverbial in nature

APPOSITIVES are two nouns or noun phrases that appear side by side, with the second serving to explain or define the first.
I recommend that you classify COMMA + more as an appositive that serves to explain or define the preceding value.

[ilyana]

This article might be helpful:
https://www.manhattangmat.com/articles/g ... itives.cfm

[aditya8062]

now let me twist this sentence a little bit and call it sentence 3 :last summer my weight increased from 200 lbs to 220 lbs,an increment more than twice as much as my little brother's

ilyana wrote:I don't think that this sentence is correct.

i am not sure as why you are saying this .this sentence seems to say :last summer my weight increased from 200 lbs to 220 lbs,an increment more than twice as much as my little brother's [increment]---->the construction after comma is an absolute phrase

i can also put this sentence as :last summer my weight increased from 200 lbs to 220 lbs,an increment more than twice as much as that of my little brother---->where "that" refers to "increment". here also the construction after comma is an absolute phrase

[aditya8062]

GURU
i have a follow up question for you

guru wrote :I recommend that you classify COMMA + more as an appositive that serves to explain or define the preceding value.

if this is really the case then in sentence 2 :last summer my weight increased from 200 lbs to 220 lbs, more than twice as much as my little brother's

the construction "comma+ more ...."will define "220 lbs" and honestly i feel that this interpretation(which can be a valid one) will be different from the one that you are suggesting

if only 220 lbs is modified by this construction then i will conclude that my little brother weighs less than 110 lbs

in other words ::last summer my weight increased from 200 lbs to 220 lbs, more than twice as much as my little brother's would imply

last summer my weight increased from 200 lbs to 220 lbs, more than twice as much as my little brother's [weight]

[ilyana]

now let me twist this sentence a little bit and call it sentence 3 :last summer my weight increased from 200 lbs to 220 lbs,an increment more than twice as much as my little brother's

ilyana wrote:I don't think that this sentence is correct.

i am not sure as why you are saying this .this sentence seems to say :last summer my weight increased from 200 lbs to 220 lbs,an increment more than twice as much as my little brother's [increment]---->the construction after comma is an absolute phrase

i can also put this sentence as :last summer my weight increased from 200 lbs to 220 lbs,an increment more than twice as much as that of my little brother---->where "that" refers to "increment". here also the construction after comma is an absolute phrase

Last summer my weight increased from 200 lbs to 220 lbs, an increase more than twice as much as my little brother's.

1) "More than twice as much" can't modify "an increase". It should be "more than twice as great".

2) I'm sorry, I don't know about the usage of "increment". You should ask a native-speaker on that one.

3) The construction after comma is not an absolute phrase; it is a summative modifier.

SUMMATIVE modifier is a modifier that serves to summarize the preceding idea. It is usually consists of a noun ("an increase") and a noun modifier ("more than twice as great as my little brother's")

Absolute phrase:

* Is set off by punctuation marks (commas, brackets, dashes)

* Usually modifies the entire clause

* Usually consists of:
Noun + participle (present or past) + some modifiers (sometimes)
(Sometimes instead of a participle there is an infinitive;
The participle "being" is often omitted)

* an absolute phrase cannot contain a finite verb (=a verb used in some tense: comes, has grown, will be, can make).

Examples:
Jupiter's moon Europa has long been considered far too cold to support life, its 60 square miles of water thought to be frozen from top to bottom.

His mind on other matters, Jordan didn't notice the growing storm.

The children set off for school, faces glum, to begin the fall term.

The audience filed out, some to return home, others to gather at the pub.

! We can have two absolute phrases in a row and connected only by a comma without a problem ! (see the last example)

* Some participle and infinitive phrases are common expressions that are considered absolute. They behave as prepositions. Since they do not need to attach to a particular word, they can be placed at the beginning (or end) of a sentence without dangling.

Financially speaking, Bob's lifestyle changes worked well.
Talking of music, have you heard the new band at Taco Jack's?
A storm is brewing, judging by the dark clouds.
To get back to the main point, the budget needs to be bigger.
The food was mediocre, to say the least.

Source: https://www.noslangues-ourlanguages.gc. ... e-eng.html

[ilyana]

GURU
i have a follow up question for you

guru wrote :I recommend that you classify COMMA + more as an appositive that serves to explain or define the preceding value.

if this is really the case then in sentence 2 :last summer my weight increased from 200 lbs to 220 lbs, more than twice as much as my little brother's

the construction "comma+ more ...."will define "220 lbs" and honestly i feel that this interpretation(which can be a valid one) will be different from the one that you are suggesting

if only 220 lbs is modified by this construction then i will conclude that my little brother weighs less than 110 lbs

in other words ::last summer my weight increased from 200 lbs to 220 lbs, more than twice as much as my little brother's would imply

last summer my weight increased from 200 lbs to 220 lbs, more than twice as much as my little brother's [weight]

I'll answer if that's ok with everyone (if it is not, please tell me so in PM).

An APPOSITIVE is not necessarily a noun modifier, so we shouldn't be fixed on nouns.

In our example we have to choose what it modifies:
1) the whole phrase (from 200 lbs to 220 lbs)
OR
2) only the last noun (220 lbs).

I believe that when there is such a choice, people tend to interpret it in favor of modification of the whole phrase.

The possible reason for it:
If we wanted to modify ONLY THE LAST NOUN in a phrase, we would use "which"-modifier indicating explicitly what is modified.

[GMATGuruNY]

GURU
i have a follow up question for you

guru wrote :I recommend that you classify COMMA + more as an appositive that serves to explain or define the preceding value.

if this is really the case then in sentence 2 :last summer my weight increased from 200 lbs to 220 lbs, more than twice as much as my little brother's

the construction "comma+ more ...."will define "220 lbs" and honestly i feel that this interpretation(which can be a valid one) will be different from the one that you are suggesting

if only 220 lbs is modified by this construction then i will conclude that my little brother weighs less than 110 lbs

in other words ::last summer my weight increased from 200 lbs to 220 lbs, more than twice as much as my little brother's would imply

last summer my weight increased from 200 lbs to 220 lbs, more than twice as much as my little brother's [weight]

While a COMMA + more modifier serves to explain or define the preceding value or change, it also refers to the VERB in the preceding clause.
To discern how the COMMA + more modifier is functioning, position it directly after the VERB in the modified clause:

More than 300 rivers drain into Siberia's Lake Baikal, which holds 20 percent of the world's fresh water, more than all the North American Great Lakes combined.
Conveyed meanings:
Lake Baikal HOLDS 20 percent of the world's fresh water.
Lake Baikal HOLDS more [fresh water] than all the North American Great Lakes combined [hold].
The portions in red are different ways of conveying the same essential meaning.
The purpose of the second red phrase is to explain or define the first.

Last summer my weight increased from 200 pounds to 220 pounds, more than twice as much as my little brother's.
Conveyed meanings:
Last summer my weight INCREASED from 200 pounds to 220 pounds.
Last summer my weight INCREASED more than twice as much as my little brother's [weight increased].
The portions in red are different ways of conveying the same essential meaning.
The purpose of the second red phrase is to explain or define the first.