Forward looking eval request

[wannabeanmba]

Hi everyone,

I'm complete new to this forum so just want to say thanks for this great resource, and hopefully I can get some constructive feedback on my profile.

I will start with the following disclaimer: I am planning on applying to MBA programs in ≈ four years. I realize that many things beyond my control can change in the next four years and I may not get the results I planned for, but I figure planning now is better than not planning at all.

What I am looking for is an evaluation of my current profile as well as an idea of the snapshot I should aim to have four years from today. Any other extra criticism/help/ideas are welcome, too!

Demographic Info:

Age: 26
Race: Hispanic
Undergrad: Cal State Fullerton (I assume this is a poorly ranked school)
Major: Business
Concentrations: Accounting, Finance
Overall GPA: 3.1 (3.2 in Accounting, 3.7 in Finance, 3.7 GPA in my last 60 units)
Extra: Worked roughly 32hrs/week throughout school and paid my tuition all on my own. Held leadership positions in 3-4 various on campus organizations in my last year and a half.

Goal: Top 10-20 MBA program, whatever is most relevant to M&A/Private Equity/Investmemt Mgmt. I am not really enthused by Management Consulting although I have not ruled it out completely. I have extremely minimal interest in Private Industry. If I can somehow land an MBA worthy job that I enjoy without having an MBA, I still plan on pursuing one. I think the MBA can be a great experience and will add value in the long run, if anything.

Extra Background/Context (**warning this section is long**):
I've made a lot of horrible mistakes but have a few good things going for me (I think). I'm not sure if any of the information below is even relevant in evaluating my candidacy so please let me know and I apologize in advance if this info is wasting your time.

I was a horrible student and it took me forever to actually get it. I graduated high school with a 2.1 GPA and a 1390 out of 1600 SAT score. I grew up in a rough neighborhood in Southern California and had bad friends. I'm the only person in family to go to college. I was dumb and succumbed to the allure of irresponsibility and indulgence. I had a 2.7 GPA in college. I have one semester of five straight F's where I essentially left school for 4 months due to personal reasons. Right after this semester, I realized I was wasting my time and started taking school seriously. I pulled a 3.7 GPA for my last 60 units and ended up with a 3.1 overall.

I now work at a Fortune 100 firm in an analyst role where I help analyze and manage our institutional investments, mainly the Pension Plan's investment assets. I also oversee activity in the 401(k) funds. This job is mildly interesting to me but is not quite challenging/engaging enough. As stated previously, I am not really interested in Private Industry and want to get out soon.

While working full-time, I've managed to pass the CPA exam in a just barely over a month. I really am not sure if MBA schools will be impressed that I passed it that quickly while working full-time hours or if they won't really care at all.

Short term goals:
1 - Obtain an audit position at a Top10/Big4 Accounting firm and get licensed as a CPA
2 - After obtaining CPA licensure, try to get into a Big4 Transaction Advisory/Debt restructuring/M&A role.
3 - Take upper division math/stats classes and pull A's to prove to MBA programs that I'm not a dummy
4 - maaaybe take the CFA (it seems like fun to me and presents a unique learning opportunity, but will having a CPA and CFA hurt my chances of getting an MBA?)
5 - Slowly practice and hone my GMAT skills and hopefully crack the 700 mark on the real thing.

Other short term goals:
I plan to start a band, but not take it so seriously.
I also plan to some of my free time to coach children from similar backgrounds as mine so they won't make the mistakes I did. I have already been doing dabbling into this and am quite serious about it.

Quick closing statement: Although much of the above is hypothetical (applying as a CPA w/ experience in transaction advisory, etc.) I am relentless and determined like no other. I have truly realized my errors and am embarking on this come-back plan with no plans on looking back.

So fellow BeattheGMAT members - What are my chances? What is wrong with my plan? What can I improve? Thanks in advance for your time and advice!

[essaysnark]

Dude - er, wannabeanmba - you have A LOT going for you in the MBA game! Your rags-to-riches story (poor kid, underrepresented minority) could resonate really really well with the adcoms at the top schools. Even without a 760 GMAT etc you still might be able to get an offer from a Harvard or a Stanford. Yes, it's true!!!

The reason we say this is:

1. You are on a strong upward trajectory. The last two years of college till now shows that you are driven to succeed, and you have a lot to show for it already - you have a plan and you're acting on it!

2. You clearly have EQ (emotional intelligence) - you recognize your mistakes and you're motivated to not repeat them - you've got some good failures behind you!

3. You're the first in your family to finish college - the bschools really appreciate this

You need to start with research into The Consortium (https://www.cgsm.org ). Here's a post we did recently on our blog about it: https://essaysnark.blocked/2011/10/ ... rtium.html This is an organization that's designed especially for kids like you - who want to succeed - who are in the minority groups of African American, Hispanic, etc. - who want to go to bschool. They make it easier to apply to some really good schools (simplified app process) and there's opportunity for scholarship too. Check them out first.

Next: There's no problem with the CFA and CPA in your bschool app; in fact, completing those would boost the "academic" part of your profile. It wouldn't hurt to take a stats/calc class too as you said, but it may not be quite as necessary if you've got the CFA in particular under your belt. Those would add value.

HOWEVER: Why are you delaying bschool for so long??? We can see why you may want to do it in a couple years, but four years feels like an eternity. We'd encourage you to pull that in somewhat - many of the best American bschools have an average age of 27 to 28, and you'll be "ripe" for consideration in just a year or two from now. (Many people actually apply at 26 but there's no need to rush if you don't feel ready.) You'd still be in range at age 30 but that's also a little distant. So that's the only part of your plan that we wonder about.

Also in terms of goals - if you want to go into finance then the CPA is fine but it may also pigeonhole you somewhat - this is just a guess, not based on any hard facts or anything. It would be a huge benefit for corp finance etc but if you have the acctg skills you don't necessarily need the CPA designation - it doesn't seem too relevant for ibanking or PE. Couldn't hurt, but also you don't want to get boxed in.

So those are just our first-blush responses to what you posted - you truly have a lot to work with. The schools care less about whether you want to Fullerton than the reasons around it and what you did with the opportunity. The 3.7 in Finance is pretty darn impressive! They'll look at the whole picture.

OK, now THAT was a long post!!

If you have other questions for us, fire away!

EssaySnark

[wannabeanmba]

Hi essaysnark,

Thank you for your feedback! I really can't say enough about this website as a resource. Thank you also for the link to the Consortium. I will definitely look into this.

You have further motivated me to take the CFA. I was on the fence about it due to the initial investment, but after reading your statements, it makes sense. It is highly quantitative and this will be convincing to MBA programs. Will the fact that I will only have the exams passed but may not actually be chartered matter to the schools? May it matter in job recruiting? I can be an affiliate member but in order to be chartered I have to have four years of work experience that "directly relates to the investment decision-making process." I may or may not have this by the time I apply.

This leads me into your question as to why I am delaying applying. I desperately want to outweigh two things: my low GPA and the fact it took me 7 years to graduate (granted I also was one shy class of completing a 3rd degree in pre-law, but that's another story). I feel that aside from all of the goals I have set for myself prior to applying, I thought it would be good to put some time distance between my undergrad and MBA. I want to demonstrate a greater degree of consistency in my recent performance as well as add more years of work experience. Additionally, the CFA will take 1.5-3 years to pass and I want substantial time afterwards (a year) to take additional math/stats classes. I also want some time to make sure I can crack the 700 mark on the GMAT. I plan on timing the GMAT so that I receive my score right as I am about to apply in with the 1st wave of applications. I feel timing it this way will show my score as being representative of my most current technical/mental ability. Is this a good strategy?


Your age comment worries me a bit. If I apply when I am 29 or 30, will this hurt me in MBA applications? Will it hurt me in recruiting for PE/IB? I am specifically concerned about it hurting my MBA chances.

I understand your comment about the CPA. I, too, sensed this from conversations I've had with people in PE firms I deal with at work. My plan is to advertise the CPA on my MBA application but most likely leave it off my resume in job recruiting. Is this a good strategy?

My third question is in regards to math/stats classes - which ones should I take? Does it matter where I take them? I only took up to "business calculus" in college.

My fourth question is very broad - what else can I adjust in my plan and what other things can I add to my application? I've noticed some people do different sorts of programs like "visiting scholar" at UCLA or something. I don't know what this is or what possibilities are out there. Taking into account that I will be working full-time and significant over-time when I join an accounting firm, what other things should I look into that will help my application be more competitive?

Lastly, what schools should I be targeting?

[Jon@Admissionado]

Hello there sir,
First of all I have to say, I LOVE your story, the passion with which you write and the dedication. If you keep this up, you are getting into business school.First of all I totally agree that with your moving story, your background, your goals and dreams that the Consortium is definitely a great thing for you. I would say that besides your proposed advancement, maybe the thing that would most benefit your application in the future is actually going ahead and moving forward which what seems to me to be your most interesting project - coaching children to not make the same mistakes as you. This seems like one of the most important things you could do given your background, and any real steps taken (especially taken soon) will show that it's more than just a story. "If not now, then When?"

Now to address your questions, first of all, if you apply when you are about 29 you are totally okay. the average age for most programs is about 27, and having two more years than average puts you in the middle core age range. And if you feel you need time to do the things you need to do, it can be the better choice for you.

As for math courses, well if you do the CPA, you are totally covered. How much more math can you get than that?

for your fourth question - I think I already answered it at the start. Go out and help those kids! do you what you can. Find like minded people to help. Found your own organization if you can, or take the lead in an existing one.

As for schools, it depends on what your GMAT is, but I feel that on the strength of your stories, if you keep working hard as you have written, and can break a 700, and being totally committed, you can apply to any school out there. Harvard is not to high for you either!

Of course succeeding in your career in the meanwhile will help greatly as well. And when you do eventually apply, add in some "safer schools" to build the best possible strategy and cover yourself.

Keep at it my friend! Looks like you are doing great so far.

[essaysnark]

Hey wannabemba! Let's see if we can tackle all the questions you posed for us.

You have further motivated me to take the CFA. I was on the fence about it due to the initial investment, but after reading your statements, it makes sense. It is highly quantitative and this will be convincing to MBA programs. Will the fact that I will only have the exams passed but may not actually be chartered matter to the schools? May it matter in job recruiting? I can be an affiliate member but in order to be chartered I have to have four years of work experience that "directly relates to the investment decision-making process." I may or may not have this by the time I apply.

It's passing the exams that will help your profile, both in terms of offsetting some of that GPA weakness, and also in positioning you for your future career. The bschools fully understand the wk exp reqmt for getting the charter and there's no need to delay a bschool app in order for that to come through. Our guess is the same holds for recruiting but we can't say that with 100% certainty.

This leads me into your question as to why I am delaying applying. I desperately want to outweigh two things: my low GPA and the fact it took me 7 years to graduate (granted I also was one shy class of completing a 3rd degree in pre-law, but that's another story). I feel that aside from all of the goals I have set for myself prior to applying, I thought it would be good to put some time distance between my undergrad and MBA. I want to demonstrate a greater degree of consistency in my recent performance as well as add more years of work experience.

Delaying your bschool app won't do anything to offset the low GPA and taking 7 yrs to complete the bachelor's. The "7 yrs" issue actually doesn't really matter - it's not a weakness per se; it's part of your story and should be explained in your app somehow but it's not a flaw in your profile necessarily; it's up to you to reposition it. The low GPA is a low GPA whether you apply today or in 10 yrs and needs to be dealt with the same. Don't delay the MBA for these reasons.

Additionally, the CFA will take 1.5-3 years to pass

Likely 2-3; we've never seen anyone do it in 1.5 yrs though it's possible. But again, completing the CFA is no reason to delay the MBA. Getting started on the CFA will add value to your app; completing it will not add much more value than that.

and I want substantial time afterwards (a year) to take additional math/stats classes.

Why afterwards? You could do them in parallel. In fact, the math classes alone would be all you need to offset the low GPA, if we're talking strictly in "ready for an MBA" terms.

I also want some time to make sure I can crack the 700 mark on the GMAT.

Now THIS is a legit reason - but not for a four-year delay!

Don't get us wrong, we're not saying you HAVE to try for bschool now, or in any particular timeframe, but we're not seeing any compelling reasons so far to delay -- particularly not for delaying for multiple years. Sure, this year may not be the right year, but four years out seems like a really LONG time.

I plan on timing the GMAT so that I receive my score right as I am about to apply in with the 1st wave of applications. I feel timing it this way will show my score as being representative of my most current technical/mental ability. Is this a good strategy?

Meh. Doesn't matter. If you can do well on the GMAT once, the standard thinking goes, you can handle the material of bschool. Doesn't really matter if it was a test this week or two years ago. If it's too old, then yes, the score starts to stale - but that's why scores are valid for only five years.

Your age comment worries me a bit. If I apply when I am 29 or 30, will this hurt me in MBA applications?

"Hurt" you? Probably not. There are pros and cons to applying at different times; ALL the schools say to "apply when you're ready" so it's up to you to evaluate if you're in a place in your career where you can make the most of the opportunity. It's harder for younger candidates, typically, than for older ones -- though once you break past the 30 y/o mark, you do move out of range for some schools. HBS in particular likes 'em young; other schools prefer students to have more significant work experience. So it's very case-by-case, dependent both on you (when is the right time for YOU?) and also the schools.

Will it hurt me in recruiting for PE/IB?

Now *this* is a much more important question, one that is often overlooked. Many banks on Wall Street prefer younger recruits. They know how grueling the lifestyle is. They like kids with no strings attached (no offense by use of "kids" but... EssaySnark is now a bit older, ya know?). If you're not married/no family then it's way easier to do all-nighters downtown to get the pitch done. Plus, if you're older, typically you want more money coming in. Sometimes people price themselves out of an opportunity simply because the built their career further before they went to bschool, and so their expectations of salary are higher coming out.

Again, it's case-by-case... but you *can* be "too old" for some of the ibanking jobs, just based on how that system works.

I understand your comment about the CPA. I, too, sensed this from conversations I've had with people in PE firms I deal with at work. My plan is to advertise the CPA on my MBA application but most likely leave it off my resume in job recruiting. Is this a good strategy?

Dunno. Sounds like lying. EssaySnark is a big fan of the truth. This one is on you to decide.

My third question is in regards to math/stats classes - which ones should I take? Does it matter where I take them? I only took up to "business calculus" in college.

The perennial question! We cover the "low GPA" issue on our blog quite a bit - here's a starter:
https://essaysnark.blocked/2010/05/ ... -days.html

My fourth question is very broad - what else can I adjust in my plan and what other things can I add to my application? I've noticed some people do different sorts of programs like "visiting scholar" at UCLA or something. I don't know what this is or what possibilities are out there. Taking into account that I will be working full-time and significant over-time when I join an accounting firm, what other things should I look into that will help my application be more competitive?

You might want to look into the Riordan programs at UCLA if you're local to them, or the Management Leaders for Tomorrow. These are both somewhat similar to The Consortium in that they're geared for minorities interested in business/business school. EssaySnark doesn't know all that much about them but they could be resources for you, not sure. Beyond that, community involvement is always a nice-to-have on an application, though its importance tends to be overstated by many. Still, you want to be able to talk about whatever causes or concerns you're passionate about and back that up with some evidence of commitment to it. So get involved in a worthwhile charity and take on a leadership role if you're not doing so already (besides, volunteering is good for us, we should all be doing more of it).

Lastly, what schools should I be targeting?

This is the million dollar question... but this one will require you hitting the ground and learning about the schools directly. We already opined that you could be looking at the top schools, based on your interesting profile. It will depend in large part on the GMAT and on what you do to fill in those gaps, as well as when you decide to apply -- and plenty of other questions like where do you want to go to school, do you want a big program or little one, urban or rural, etc etc etc. If you want to go to work on Wall Street, then it's pretty obvious: Wharton, Chicago, Columbia, NYU, maybe LBS. Harvard and MIT could also be in that mix, maybe Yale. Much depends on what you want to do with the MBA and where you want to end up when you finish.

Here's a post about this: https://essaysnark.blocked/2010/06/ ... chool.html

And this probably takes the record for the longest BTG post ever!!! Hopefully it was helpful, though long-winded.

EssaySnark

[wannabeanmba]

Hello there sir,
First of all I have to say, I LOVE your story, the passion with which you write and the dedication. If you keep this up, you are getting into business school.First of all I totally agree that with your moving story, your background, your goals and dreams that the Consortium is definitely a great thing for you. I would say that besides your proposed advancement, maybe the thing that would most benefit your application in the future is actually going ahead and moving forward which what seems to me to be your most interesting project - coaching children to not make the same mistakes as you. This seems like one of the most important things you could do given your background, and any real steps taken (especially taken soon) will show that it's more than just a story. "If not now, then When?"

Thank you so much for the encouragement. I still feel that my chances are not so great. Maybe I am jaded from a few experiences I had during job recruiting. I will overcome it and shoot for the best. Your sugggestion here is totally right. I researched some organizations this weekend, plan on contacting them this week and setting something up in time for Thanksgiving.

Now to address your questions, first of all, if you apply when you are about 29 you are totally okay. the average age for most programs is about 27, and having two more years than average puts you in the middle core age range. And if you feel you need time to do the things you need to do, it can be the better choice for you.

Thank you, again. Although all my goals will be hard to accomplish within the next three years, I think 29 probably is the ideal age for me to apply. I hope I can get everything done by then. I agree with you and essaysnark, 30 does seem a bit too old.

As for math courses, well if you do the CPA, you are totally covered. How much more math can you get than that?

I'm sorry but did you mean CFA? The CPA was more about understanding rules/regulations. Tested material did not even approach basic algebra. Or do MBA admission boards associate a CPA designation with heavy math?

As for schools, it depends on what your GMAT is, but I feel that on the strength of your stories, if you keep working hard as you have written, and can break a 700, and being totally committed, you can apply to any school out there. Harvard is not to high for you either!

Of course succeeding in your career in the meanwhile will help greatly as well. And when you do eventually apply, add in some "safer schools" to build the best possible strategy and cover yourself.

Keep at it my friend! Looks like you are doing great so far.

Thank you for the encouragement and advice. I truly appreciate it. If there is one thing I have learned about succeeding, it is:
1) there must be a plan
2) the plan must be written and you must be exposed to this written plan often
3) you must stay disciplined to the plan

It's passing the exams that will help your profile, both in terms of offsetting some of that GPA weakness, and also in positioning you for your future career. The bschools fully understand the wk exp reqmt for getting the charter and there's no need to delay a bschool app in order for that to come through. Our guess is the same holds for recruiting but we can't say that with 100% certainty.

Great to hear. Will be applying to take the CFA Level 1 in June and plan to cram all throughout the 1st half the year. Wish me luck!

Delaying your bschool app won't do anything to offset the low GPA and taking 7 yrs to complete the bachelor's. The "7 yrs" issue actually doesn't really matter - it's not a weakness per se; it's part of your story and should be explained in your app somehow but it's not a flaw in your profile necessarily; it's up to you to reposition it. The low GPA is a low GPA whether you apply today or in 10 yrs and needs to be dealt with the same. Don't delay the MBA for these reasons.

Okay. I think you are right on all these points. I am glad to hear that taking 7 yrs to complete my undergrad won't be looked at too heavily. That was a major concern of mine. Another big concern is that I had to repeat some classes due to getting Ds or Fs. I would say the majority of these were replaced with C's and I'm sure that's bad news. I've been trying not to dwell on this kind of stuff and just put these errors behind me but how would I go about explaining this in an essay? I am thinking the best way is to just do a ton of great things both in terms of educational achievements, professional development, and community involvement, then summarize my disasterous late teens/early 20s in one to four sentences and fill the rest of the essay with my lessons learned and what I've done to overcome these mistakes. Will this work? I guess what I'm really asking is - what are some 'best practices' you've seen along the lines of explaining repeated classes with only C's as the new grades?

Now THIS is a legit reason - but not for a four-year delay!

Don't get us wrong, we're not saying you HAVE to try for bschool now, or in any particular timeframe, but we're not seeing any compelling reasons so far to delay -- particularly not for delaying for multiple years. Sure, this year may not be the right year, but four years out seems like a really LONG time.

I'm going to shoot for sooner than four years.

Dunno. Sounds like lying. EssaySnark is a big fan of the truth. This one is on you to decide.

Sorry but I don't see how this is lying? If I recruit for a PE/IB position, I will just leave the CPA off my resume as it is irrelevant to the position I am applying for. As an example, I don't plan on putting my cashier job at Macy's even though I really did work there. If they ask, I will gladly say I am a CPA but I just don't see how mentioning it will benefit either party involved. For MBA programs, however, I imagine they consider this an advantage and do indeed want to know this. For this reason, I do plan on making it apparent in my MBA app. Does that clarify things?

You might want to look into the Riordan programs at UCLA if you're local to them, or the Management Leaders for Tomorrow. These are both somewhat similar to The Consortium in that they're geared for minorities interested in business/business school. EssaySnark doesn't know all that much about them but they could be resources for you, not sure. Beyond that, community involvement is always a nice-to-have on an application, though its importance tends to be overstated by many. Still, you want to be able to talk about whatever causes or concerns you're passionate about and back that up with some evidence of commitment to it. So get involved in a worthwhile charity and take on a leadership role if you're not doing so already (besides, volunteering is good for us, we should all be doing more of it).

Thank you for this! I researched the Riordian program and am interested. It turns out that a VP at my company whom I was talking to earlier this week is actually a volunteer in the program. I am also going to research this more and reach out to the best programs that will help build my resume.

Thanks to both essaysnark and PrecisionEssay for your advice and encouragement. I'm glad to be a member of this forum and plan on giving periodic updates on my progression up until I actually get into one of these schools. Have a great weekend everyone.

[essaysnark]

Hey wannabeanmba -- sounds like you had a productive week!! It's great that you're making a connection at Riordan, we've heard good things about them.

At risk of us doing another super-long post which we're becoming known for 'round these parts, let's quickly hit on the questions you had for us:

1. We can't really give complete advice on the 'best practices' question WRT your academic bkgrd in a forum post but we can say this: you need to somehow explain what was going on with the 7 yrs (probably in an optional essay, though sometimes this type of backstory can be covered in a main career essay); and if your C grades that replaced the Ds/Fs were in quant subjects e.g., calc or stats, it wouldn't hurt to take one or more of those again - yes, even if you nail the CFA (good luck on that BTW!!). (And you're right, the CPA won't help much here.) The fact that it took 7 yrs, the fact you had some not-great grades, these things may not matter if you explain what was going on. Which we're sure you can do! But this is a very strategic question, it involves the entirety of your application/profile, and no admissions consultant who's worth their salt can offer that advice in a vacuum without seeing the big picture and working with you on all the moving parts.

2. On the CPA-on-the-resume -- being a cashier at Macy's is not a professional role, it's a job (no offense to any Macy's cashiers!!); having a CPA is part of your professional profile and career history. Again, we're not telling you what to do -- it's your resume! We may be hypersensitive to the 'ethics' thing given the nature of our business, so we'll just leave it at that. (You'll get better advice on this from the career services peeps at bschool anyway, you won't need to rely on Internet boards and hearsay when you're aiming for that big target!!)

If you had other questions for us, we've overlooked them - please re-ask and we will try to re-tell ya what we think!! Most importantly, it sounds like you're on the right track in terms of research and putting together an action plan. Can't wait to get the next update!!

EssaySnark