UCLA vs. Rotman

[bjcoolj]

I recent got accepted to two schools - UCLA Anderson and Toronto Rotman. Both schools have stellar finance programs; however, there isn't much of financial industry in Southern California, and for some of the finance jobs here I would be competing against many Ivy business school graduates from the East. Toronto Rotman on the other hand is located in the heart of Canada's most vibrant financial district, and Canada's banks seem to have weathered the financial crisis exceptionally well compared to U.S. While I am leaning toward Toronto, I also hate to leave Southern California and move to Canada. So, my decision will be down to the school that gives better bang for my buck and has that international brand recognition. Any suggestions or recommendations?

[Jessica@VeritasPrep]

I don't have a specific answer for you because I am not familiar with Rotman. It might be great if you want to work in canada after graduation. But, this is more than school, it is life. If you want to stay in CA and attend UCLA, you WILL be able to find a job in finance. UCLA is a very, very well regarded school. Definitely top 15 (and consistently). It could take a bit more effort than if you were on the East Coast, but, you'll find a job.

I recognize that I am US-centric - if you want to work abroad, ignore my advice. But, if you want a shot a wall street, go for Anderson.

[bjcoolj]

Thank you so much for your response. I do agree with you and I guess needed some confirmation from others. Thanks!

[Jessica@VeritasPrep]

You are welcome. AND, you should feel very good about your options. I've worked with many talented applicants this year who would have LOVED to have the chance to be at UCLA. It is a very strong program and you'll come out with great skills and a strong, strong network.

Good luck!

[sch]

I just want to make a brief comment here. There is a difference between education in Canada and the U.S. Notice how Jessica jumps to a conclusion that you HAVE to attend an American school to have a shot at the wall street. Rotman has been ranked in finance by FT between 5-10 ever since these rankings began to be published. So you telling me that a graduate from a top 10 school in the WORLD cannot make it to the wall street, just because the school is located geographically in Canada? Very ignorant comment Jessica makes.
It is true that Rotman may be underated compared to UCLA. Largely it is because competition for the progrem is less intense for Rotman. There are reasons for that, mainly average salaries, most graduates are Canadians and they stay in Canada, where salaries are lower, and the perception of a foreigner applying to the school is that the school on the whole is inferior as the salary is lower. Graduating from a top 10 school in the field and top 20 buisness centers in the world dont go unnoticed, however. Canadian education is also different in that it is more likely to employ foreign professors and implement global perspectives rather than focus on the United States. Look at Ivey and Sauder, very strong connection to Asia. Look at Schulich, virtually no Canadian or American content, everything focused ont he concept of "Global".
As for my advice, decide whatever is more convenient for you, both are fantastic schools. But to express such a critical opinion on a well respected school, which Jessica even admits she is not familiar with, is absurd. Geographical location of institution will not limit anyones ability to land high paying jobs. As for Veritas, well I know now not to take their advice on admission issues.

Uneducated opinions are useless and ugly - Plato

[sch]

I just want to make a brief comment here. There is a difference between education in Canada and the U.S. Notice how Jessica jumps to a conclusion that you HAVE to attend an American school to have a shot at the wall street. Rotman has been ranked in finance by FT between 5-10 ever since these rankings began to be published. So you telling me that a graduate from a top 10 school in the WORLD cannot make it to the wall street, just because the school is located geographically in Canada? Very ignorant comment Jessica makes.
It is true that Rotman may be underated compared to UCLA. Largely it is because competition for the progrem is less intense for Rotman. There are reasons for that, mainly average salaries, most graduates are Canadians and they stay in Canada, where salaries are lower, and the perception of a foreigner applying to the school is that the school on the whole is inferior as the salary is lower. Graduating from a top 10 school in the field and top 20 buisness centers in the world dont go unnoticed, however. Canadian education is also different in that it is more likely to employ foreign professors and implement global perspectives rather than focus on the United States. Look at Ivey and Sauder, very strong connection to Asia. Look at Schulich, virtually no Canadian or American content, everything focused ont he concept of "Global".
As for my advice, decide whatever is more convenient for you, both are fantastic schools. But to express such a critical opinion on a well respected school, which Jessica even admits she is not familiar with, is absurd. Geographical location of institution will not limit anyones ability to land high paying jobs. As for Veritas, well I know now not to take their advice on admission issues.

Uneducated opinions are useless and ugly - Plato

[jon82]

I just want to make a brief comment here. There is a difference between education in Canada and the U.S. Notice how Jessica jumps to a conclusion that you HAVE to attend an American school to have a shot at the wall street. Rotman has been ranked in finance by FT between 5-10 ever since these rankings began to be published. So you telling me that a graduate from a top 10 school in the WORLD cannot make it to the wall street, just because the school is located geographically in Canada? Very ignorant comment Jessica makes.
It is true that Rotman may be underated compared to UCLA. Largely it is because competition for the progrem is less intense for Rotman. There are reasons for that, mainly average salaries, most graduates are Canadians and they stay in Canada, where salaries are lower, and the perception of a foreigner applying to the school is that the school on the whole is inferior as the salary is lower. Graduating from a top 10 school in the field and top 20 buisness centers in the world dont go unnoticed, however. Canadian education is also different in that it is more likely to employ foreign professors and implement global perspectives rather than focus on the United States. Look at Ivey and Sauder, very strong connection to Asia. Look at Schulich, virtually no Canadian or American content, everything focused ont he concept of "Global".
As for my advice, decide whatever is more convenient for you, both are fantastic schools. But to express such a critical opinion on a well respected school, which Jessica even admits she is not familiar with, is absurd. Geographical location of institution will not limit anyones ability to land high paying jobs. As for Veritas, well I know now not to take their advice on admission issues.

Uneducated opinions are useless and ugly - Plato

Sch,

Are you kidding me? We must have read two completely different posts, because I found Jessica's post enlightened and honest. Bjcoolj asked for advice about picking between two schools, while making it clear that he wanted to stay in Cali but was worried about his future if he stayed in LA. Jessica responded first by admitting that she might have a bias, and then by saying that if bj wanted a job in finance he should not be worried that UCLA is somehow less well regarded on Wall Street. This was honest and accurate and in no way deserving of flaming.

I completely agree with her and actually think it would be uninformed/crazy for someone from Socal to move to Toronto out of fear that UCLA doesn't cut it in the financial world.
But all that is irrelevant anyway: she responded to bj's question while pointing out her own potential bias. Nothing wrong with that. And since you are new here, let me point out that these 'experts' (ok - I definitely take their advice with a grain of salt) aren't paid to help people like bj, right? They're just giving back while maybe trying to drum up interest in their profession.

J

[Jessica@VeritasPrep]

I didn't intend to imply that wall street jobs only go to graduates of American business schools. However, there are advantages (both in recruiting and networking) to attending graduate school in the country or region in which you intend to work.

My comments should not be construed as Veritas comments, as a consultant, I'd work closely with the individual and give guidance based on the applicant's goals. Most of my work is focused on American schools and candidates that hope to attend a top 10, US-based, MBA program because that is my area of expertise.

My apologies if I offended any Rotman students (or other non-US MBA students/applicants), that was not my intention.

[Jessica@VeritasPrep]

I agree that posts should be as well informed as possible, below is a link to FT rankings. UCLA is consistently ranked higher than Rotman (rankings listed for the past 3 years).

Hope this helps!

https://rankings.ft.com/exportranking/gl ... nkings/pdf

[bjcoolj]

I really appreciate the responses to my query. I am actually a Canadian and am staying in Southern California as a permanent resident. As a graduate of Canadian university (University of Waterloo), I am very familiar with the repute of Canadian universities and its graduate programs. Yes "sch" you are right that Rotman is a great school; however, you seemed to be very ill informed on the fact that Rotman is ranked top 10 in the world. In fact, based on my research of several rankings (FT, Business Week, Frobes, U.S. News), there is no Canadian MBA program ranked within top 30 in the world. Financial Times actually ranks Rotman 45th in the world. But it still is a very well known school in Canada and has a very strong MBA program, and I didn't make my decision to attend Anderson simply based on the rankings.

I have many friends working in financial sectors in Asia, Canada, and United States. I have friends who have done MBA programs at Rotman, and at top tier U.S. schools (Michigan and Berkeley). What they have told me is basically this, Rotman graduate will have excellent chance of employment within Canada and it is the most respected MBA program in Canada. However, Rotman's reputation falls short very quickly outside Canadian borders. While there are many Canadian MBA graduates working in Wall Street, they have very tough time competing against IVY MBAs (Columbia, HBS, Wharton, etc..).

On an international level, UCLA is better known throughout the world than Toronto, while very few people, working in financial industry outside Canada, knows about the great programs at the University of Toronto. So even before I asked Jessica the question "Rotman vs. Anderson", I was inclining towards UCLA Anderson.

The reason I appreciated her advice so much is that while Anderson is a very well known school for its entrepreneurship and entertainment majors, I wasn't sure of the competitiveness of Anderson's finance majors. However, I've done some research after reading her opinion and have found very successful financiers who are Anderson graduates - mainly Larry Fink, CEO of Black Rock Investment. I'm also convinced that Anderson program can train me to be competitive in finance career and provide me the name value that is instantly recognized in most part of the world.

"Sch", I do appreciate your response but I have to say Jessica actually have provided me with very realistic and reasoned advice to my inquiry, and I don't think she was ignorant or dismissive of Canadian schools. Further, I think you are little upset about the trend that people on this board regarding U.S. MBAs higher than their international peers. However, it is the reality that most of the highest regarded MBA programs are located in the United States. But I do want to thank you and everyone else, especially Jessica, for providing great insight into this issue.

[Scott@VeritasPrep]

So you telling me that a graduate from a top 10 school in the WORLD cannot make it to the wall street, just because the school is located geographically in Canada? Very ignorant comment Jessica makes.

Sch, I'm curious to know where exactly Jessica's post you saw her comment that one must attend a U.S. school to get a job at a U.S. bank. Much like jon82, bjcoolj, and other people who have read this thread, I find your response to be amusing given that the meat of Jessica's post was about what one CAN do with a UCLA Anderson agree, not what one CAN'T do with a Rotman degree.

It is true that Rotman may be underated (sic) compared to UCLA. Largely it is because competition for the progrem (sic) is less intense for Rotman. There are reasons for that, mainly average salaries, most graduates are Canadians and they stay in Canada, where salaries are lower, and the perception of a foreigner applying to the school is that the school on the whole is inferior as the salary is lower.

Hmm, I feel like I read this (the part in bold) before. Oh, right... Jessica said it in her own post. When she says it, she's ignorant, but when you say it, it's a plain, harmless fact?

But to express such a critical opinion on a well respected school, which Jessica even admits she is not familiar with, is absurd.

Again, we're all waiting for you to enlighten us as to what exactly about Jessica's post was critical about Rotman.

Let's try to be civil here, people!

Scott

[simchi]

Not that I disagree with the advice provided by Jessica, but to have other folks from Veritas come in with a condescending attitude weakens my perception of the company.

An informed reader can make a proper judgment on the post above without snide remarks from another Veritas poster, and from the content of the post, it appears as if the sole intent is to discredit and rebuke another person's opinion.

[tso]

wow. spirited discussion. jessica, coming back to what you said about a strong network amongst UCLA alumni, which are the schools in california that you consider to be good stepping stones into the US workplace?

this is not a rank question, but an industry specific networking question. while i am looking for a good school within the top 30 ranks, i am more inclined to take up a lower ranked school in california that will give me this edge, simply because i love the californian culture and spirit of industry.

also, how much do these schools in california - and i realise the answer varies per school - look for candidate potential vs proven management experience? i want to pursue a online media/ecommerce/online journalism direction post MBA, and am currently working in australia for a german e-commerce company as an IT consultant. i may or may not have a formal mgt role on my resume by the time i apply (targeting spring 2012).

any inputs will be much appreciated.

[The Duke]

bjcoolj - question for you. When was Rotman's deadline for you to accept/reject their offer of admission to you? When is the final date to accept/reject an offfer for someone who submitted Round 3?

Rotman is a B-School that I may potentially target (as I'm in the Toronto area).
Also Rotman accepts a higher percentage of Canadians (50-60%), then Schulich (~30%).
Rotman is known for ranking inside the top 10 Globally on its Finance Specialization.
I think Ivey B-School (University of Western) & Rotman are Canada's best, but Ivey is better if your going back to the states.

However, given your circumstances, I would have choosen UCLA quite easily, especially since you want to remain in the States on the West Coast.