Lets discuss why we're in need of this MBA degree...

[skang357]

Okay so I got dinged by 3 out of 4 schools so far and the one place I'm waiting on, although given the current trend, I think they'll ding me too, I have fears and concerns about wanting to work and live in St Louis.

So I actually spent my friday night looking at linkedin after getting my third ding yesterday. (Sneaky ass MBA admission director called me first, told me they would make a decision by the end of the day or Monday, and then ding me one hour later on their application site)

Looked at one the school's mba program that dinged me (Anderson)'s alumnae(ie)(us).

Then as you start looking at one person's linkedin page, you gradually start looking at other related ones, then you go other people that graduated from different schools (like Harvard).

What did I learn?

Seems that the overriding main theme I see (can be a self selecting sample as maybe people who post their resumes on linkedin are similar or have similar frame of mind) is that these people are all the same.

MBA's are all the same. They all follow this similar recipe or a slight variation of it : go to college (preferably a good one, but if you don't and go to state school instead as long as you get good grades you'll get a decent job).

They for the most part go into their 2 year analyst programs. Then they'll go work for some company like Disney perhaps.

Crunch some numbers, make some spreadsheets.

Then they'll go to a school like Anderson, then they come out. Some will do it at the same time as they work.

If they are really good, they end up at a "prestigious" company like Goldman, maybe Bain, Mck, after graduating.

Do that for two years, then later they join some venture capital company, maybe as a principal.

Others will go work for a start up (maybe internet, maybe wireless, maybe social networking) in some kind of role like "Director of Business Strategy".

And then they'll do this for a few more years and by the time they know it they are already close to 50 years old and then the game is over and now they have to retire or start a dog walking business. ( actually a real example)





I looked at the above, and the same story plays out for all of these MBA people. And the above story only applies to people who graduate from schools at least Anderson or higher ranked.

You can forget about "lesser" schools that are still ranked top 30 but not in the prestige list like the one I applied to because they gave me an admission waiver and is located in St. Louis.

I see people from that school that seem to do well after graduating but then start working in well known companies but not of the "caliber" as Bain, Goldman, etc and they just work as manager, sr. manager, sr. manager of IT global operations, then for some reason they are laid off.

So my point is : is it really worth all the effort and time to go after this degree and live the same career to be the same blueprint model?

These MBA's, maybe they'll make 200K if they're good a few years after they graduate, but they don't create anything, they don't make really revolutionize anything.

They just follow the same model because that's what society tells them to follow. They're just all of the same mold.

In my 10 year career I was fortunate to work for a guy who actually dropped out of college two years before he could graduate start a trading software company and sold it to Etrade for 280 million dollars.

Now he dates exotic East European models and bankrolls major Hollywood films like Babel and Mr. and Mrs. Smith.

Another guy I worked for was not the heavy hitter as the previous guy but still in my definition I would love to be able to reach the success he did. Graduated from USC with degree in accounting, one of the sharpest and polished guys I've ever met, created some kind of web page where he made 250K somehow, with that money launched an Internet ad company, and makes revenue close to 10 million a year for like 15 employees. The guy probably pays the 14 other people around 100K average and pockets the rest of the 8.6 million himself. Not bad at all for a early 30's guy.

See these are the people that change the world and reach the definition of the "success story."

When I take a look at the career paths of these MBA guys, it's all the same. These MBA's pale in comparison to what they do with their careers and careers and lives comparison to people who make a stand and realize that what they learn in school about accounting, and general management, for the most part, you can basically learn from taking a community college course and reading businessweek.

I'm not saying the MBA's are dumber people. I'm sure they had to have excellent memories and problem solving skills to get their 700's.

But, what it is they do lack is perhaps boldness and maybe imagination.

Because they MBA does not teach you that. It doesn't teach you to look for the next trend, or to change the landscape and create your own opportunities.

The MBA is about feeding you business buzz words, the ability to speak those words to people who you think you're impressing them with words "change management" and "best practices" and "greenlit project based on competitive landscape analysis" and some other jargon while you're wearing a suit.

At the very best these MBA types will only be the right hand man for a guy who creates his own company.

I say the MBA is for cookiecutters and for people who would rather devote 2 to 3 years of their lives doing what society tells them to do by devoting their energies to learning what another 100K people learn at the same time so they can make 200K for about 10 years (if they do everything right) and then start a dogwalking business when it's all over.

And of course the business schools, the GMAC, businessweek, the test preps, the admissions consultants, even the University of Phoenix and the Devry Keller School of Business, they all do an amazing job at perpetuating this juggernaut of a big business that is the MBA degree. I know they are getting as much if not more out of this than the students, and I believe in the long run, they are the winners.

Any thoughts?

[skang357]

Okay so I got dinged by 3 out of 4 schools so far and the one place I'm waiting on, although given the current trend, I think they'll ding me too, and I have fears and concerns about wanting to work and live in St Louis.

So I actually spent my friday night looking at linkedin after getting my third ding yesterday. (Sneaky ass MBA admission director called me first, told me they would make a decision by the end of the day or Monday, and then ding me one hour later on their application site)

Looked at one the school's mba program that dinged me (Anderson)'s alumnae(ie)(us).

Then as you start looking at one person's linkedin page, you gradually start looking at other related ones, then you go other people that graduated from different schools (like Harvard).

What did I learn?

Seems that the overriding main theme I see (can be a self selecting sample as maybe people who post their resumes on linkedin are similar or have similar frame of mind) is that these people are all the same.

MBA's are all the same. They all follow this similar recipe or a slight variation of it : go to college (preferably a good one, but if you don't and go to state school instead as long as you get good grades you'll get a decent job).

They for the most part go into their 2 year analyst programs. Then they'll go work for some company like Disney perhaps.

Crunch some numbers, make some spreadsheets.

Then they'll go to a school like Anderson, then they come out. Some will do it at the same time as they work.

If they are really good, they end up at a "prestigious" company like Goldman, maybe Bain, Mck, after graduating.

Do that for two years, then later they join some venture capital company, maybe as a principal.

Others will go work for a start up (maybe internet, maybe wireless, maybe social networking) in some kind of role like "Director of Business Strategy".

And then they'll do this for a few more years and by the time they know it they are already close to 50 years old and then the game is over and now they have to retire or start a dog walking business.





I looked at the above, and the same story plays out for all of these MBA people. And the above story only applies to people who graduate from schools at least Anderson or higher ranked.

You can forget about "lesser" schools that are still ranked top 30 but not in the prestige list like the one I applied to because they gave me an admission waiver and is located in St. Louis.

I see people from that school that seem to do well after graduating but then start working in well known companies but not of the "caliber" as Bain, Goldman, etc and they just work as manager, sr. manager, sr. manager of IT global operations, then for some reason they are laid off.

So my point is : is it really worth all the effort and time to go after this degree and live the same career to be the same blueprint model?

These MBA's, maybe they'll make 200K if they're good a few years after they graduate, but they don't create anything, they don't make really revolutionize anything.

They just follow the same model because that's what society tells them to follow. They're just all of the same mold.

In my 10 year career I was fortunate to work for a guy who actually dropped out of college two years before he could graduate start a trading software company and sold it to Etrade for 280 million dollars.

Now he dates exotic East European models and bankrolls major Hollywood films like Babel and Mr. and Mrs. Smith.

Another guy I worked for was not the heavy hitter as the previous guy but still in my definition I would love to be able to reach the success he did. Graduated from USC with degree in accounting, one of the sharpest and polished guys I've ever met, created some kind of web page where he made 250K somehow, with that money launched an Internet ad company, and makes revenue close to 10 million a year for like 15 employees. The guy probably pays the 14 other people around 100K average and pockets the rest of the 8.6 million himself. Not bad at all for a early 30's guy.

See these are the people that change the world and reach the definition of the "success story."

When I take a look at the career paths of these MBA guys, it's all the same. These MBA's pale in comparison to what they do with their careers and careers and lives comparison to people who make a stand and realize that what they learn in school about accounting, and general management, for the most part, you can basically learn from taking a community college course and reading businessweek.

I'm not saying the MBA's are dumber people. I'm sure they had to have excellent memories and problem solving skills to get their 700's.

But, what it is they do lack is perhaps boldness and maybe imagination.

Because they MBA does not teach you that. It doesn't teach you to look for the next trend, or to change the landscape and create your own opportunities.

The MBA is about feeding you business buzz words, the ability to speak those words to people who you think you're impressing them with words "change management" and "best practices" and "greenlit project based on competitive landscape analysis" and some other jargon while you're wearing a suit.

At the very best these MBA types will only be the right hand man for a guy who creates his own company.

I say the MBA is for cookiecutters and for people who would rather devote 2 to 3 years of their lives doing what society tells them to do by devoting their energies to learning what another 100K people learn at the same time so they can make 200K for about 10 years (if they do everything right) and then start a dogwalking business when it's all over.

And of course the business schools, the GMAC, businessweek, the test preps, the admissions consultants, they all do an amazing job at perpetuating this juggernaut of a big business that is the MBA degree. I know they are getting as much if not more out of this than the students, and I believe in the long run, they are the winners.

Any thoughts?

Disclaimer : (of course being bitter at the application process and my poor outcome plays a role in generating this post, but this prognosis also reflects what I know to be a general truth about the degree)

[crejoc]

I feel that what you are talking about is between 'Entrepreneurship' and 'Management'. An entrepreneur may be a good manager , but a manager may not be an entrepreneur. Entrepreneurs have a spark, have a die hard feeling to do what they wish. Almost everyone has this spark, but they die out for various reasons, some may personal, some may financial, and some may for other reasons. And these guys who never lose their spark, are those successful people you refer to. But at the same time not all entrepreneurs are successful. If you say in percentage of success it is far low. We know about only successful entrepreneurs , but rarely we get to know about those who failed in their venture.

Some people gets a satisfaction in doing what they like to do. It all depends on every individual. A manager may be more satisfied with the job he has than an entrepreneur. While an entrepreneur earning less than the manager may be also satisfied to do what he likes to do. In simple 'Entrepreneurs' and 'Managers' are different... It is not about how much success these people are, it is about what they are . If you had a die hard feeling to do something yourself alone , and only doing that gives you happiness and satisfaction, then go chase your dreams... This is what i feel personally and the way i look this topic.. I may be wrong.. Gud luck..

And at last.. I have heard about that some percentage of guys after their B-school opt for 'entrepreneurship'

[skang357]

I feel that what you are talking about is between 'Entrepreneurship' and 'Management'. An entrepreneur may be a good manager , but a manager may not be an entrepreneur. Entrepreneurs have a spark, have a die hard feeling to do what they wish. Almost everyone has this spark, but they die out for various reasons, some may personal, some may financial, and some may for other reasons. And these guys who never lose their spark, are those successful people you refer to. But at the same time not all entrepreneurs are successful. If you say in percentage of success it is far low. We know about only successful entrepreneurs , but rarely we get to know about those who failed in their venture.

Some people gets a satisfaction in doing what they like to do. It all depends on every individual. A manager may be more satisfied with the job he has than an entrepreneur. While an entrepreneur earning less than the manager may be also satisfied to do what he likes to do. In simple 'Entrepreneurs' and 'Managers' are different... It is not about how much success these people are, it is about what they are . If you had a die hard feeling to do something yourself alone , and only doing that gives you happiness and satisfaction, then go chase your dreams... This is what i feel personally and the way i look this topic.. I may be wrong.. Gud luck..

And at last.. I have heard about that some percentage of guys after their B-school opt for 'entrepreneurship'

Yeah but most guys who study entrepreneurship just seem to go for their 150K salary as product manager at clorox instead of staking it out, maxing their credit card, and going for it. They seem to take the "guaranteed" way out and see how long they make it as a manager.

It doesn't make sense to go for an MBA to learn about entrepreneurship (I guess meeting contacts and listening to speakers, or entering your business plan in the national mba competition that some VC's attend would be a counter reason to attend).

Because most aspiring entrepreneurs will be 100K in debt straight out of school. They need all the money they can get and they're not exactly devoting their working days and energy to making an income working for a company that's already established and doing what's already been established to make money rather than rely on their own intuition and instinct to come up with something that hasn't been tested or proven but can generate its own income if successful.

But you're right about the management thing. I also tend to think that managers can't be exactly taught either. It seems to be a skill that people are born with this thing they call leadership. Maybe it applies to the oldest child, but I see that people either have this or they don't.

Lastly, this is just my guess but I would think that the amount of MBA grads and management aspirants who make it to the high rung (the EVP's, the SVP's, and other titles that start with "C") percentage wise are about the same as the entrepreneurs who are able to establish and successfully run a business. Maybe even less considering that there are also a lot of ho-hum businesses out there that are just getting by.

If you think about it, considering there are about 100K MBA grads a year around the world and the companies are already full of these MBA's from prior years, and everyone is trying to get at that upper level management rung, then it's really shows you how much the odds are stacked against you to be a ladder climbing manager. Not too mention all those years you have to deal with the BS, politics that accompanies the journey.

I agree with the thing you say about "spark". Yeah most people had this spark and then for a lot life happens and then the spark dies. Then they go apply to an MBA. LOL.

But seriously, I saw the spark in some successful entrepreneurs. You can tell why they're successful and it's because of that spark. It sparks very bright, you can feel it, and others follow it and are drawn to it.

[yogami]

The quest to survive and replicate, consciously or subconsciously, drives a person and dictates his or her success as a manager or an entrepreneur or whatever. Past conditioning plays an important role in molding who you are but I disagree that your brain is obstinate to evolve from a non-leader to a leader. Hell, in that case a previously shy guy like me would have never gotten laid?
Fears that accompany a typical MBA, at least from my opinion, are - bank loans, getting too old, peer pressure to buy a condo/BMW/get married(hot wife), for some get the green card and settle in US (at least for me)...
They key to break out of the mold is knowing exactly why you are going to get an MBA. Many entrepreneurs I know did not chose to be entrepreneurs for the money factor at all but their passion. If you can land yourself a good job after your graduate, make a tonne of quality contacts and friends through networking, pay off your bank loans within the very first year then you have all the right ingredients to pursue your passion at the expense of your job!!. For me MBA is just a degree to add value to my resume and add tonnes and tones of contacts to facebook and linkedin, meet a lot of hot women in school, find that sharp group of like minded individuals with whom you can team up and envision your entrepreneurship goals. And thats why, for me, its going to be back to my home country India. 100K loans from US schools are a deal breaker for me. But nevertheless, I don't want to be living in my past or future anymore and enjoy the present moment not worrying about the "what ifs" and "could have" and "should have" and "would have". MBA is another phase in this journey of life so just enjoy it irrespective of the fact that it pays off or doesn't

[skang357]

The quest to survive and replicate, consciously or subconsciously, drives a person and dictates his or her success as a manager or an entrepreneur or whatever. Past conditioning plays an important role in molding who you are but I disagree that your brain is obstinate to evolve from a non-leader to a leader. Hell, in that case a previously shy guy like me would have never gotten laid?
Fears that accompany a typical MBA, at least from my opinion, are - bank loans, getting too old, peer pressure to buy a condo/BMW/get married(hot wife), for some get the green card and settle in US (at least for me)...
They key to break out of the mold is knowing exactly why you are going to get an MBA. Many entrepreneurs I know did not chose to be entrepreneurs for the money factor at all but their passion. If you can land yourself a good job after your graduate, make a tonne of quality contacts and friends through networking, pay off your bank loans within the very first year then you have all the right ingredients to pursue your passion at the expense of your job!!. For me MBA is just a degree to add value to my resume and add tonnes and tones of contacts to facebook and linkedin, meet a lot of hot women in school, find that sharp group of like minded individuals with whom you can team up and envision your entrepreneurship goals. And thats why, for me, its going to be back to my home country India. 100K loans from US schools are a deal breaker for me. But nevertheless, I don't want to be living in my past or future anymore and enjoy the present moment not worrying about the "what ifs" and "could have" and "should have" and "would have". MBA is another phase in this journey of life so just enjoy it irrespective of the fact that it pays off or doesn't

Good for you man. As long as you feel in your heart you're doing the right thing and it just feels right and natural to you, you should do it. I think everybody has the potential to do something great with their lives as long as they do what they love and it just feels good and natural to them. They wake up for it and it gets them excited.

Just don't feel that passionate about this degree. To me it's a societal construct, the MBA degree. If you take it farther, you can even say a college degree is a societal construct. But I guess you need it for the education. Dunno. I went to college where the undergraduate business program is cross listed with the graduate business program so I sort of feel that I learned all the things that MBA's learned. If I were to do it, it would basically be to join the "boy's club" and get that degree on your resume because everyone else has the degree and you need it to become sr manager. (more societal constructs). I feel like those are like some kind of ceilings and hurdles that society tells you to abide by. I choose not to be restricted by those things and feel more natural and know I will give it my best when I do what I feel is right.

Oh yeah, like you said the human innate quest to replicate and reproduce is what brings the shy guy to become bold enough to ask the hot girl he has his eye on on a date and "get laid". But I say it's sort of a stretch to to say the same thing that the quest to replicate would also force the shy guy to become a leader.

Because as you know it, there are tons and tons of people who just go through life and the drabness of their 9 to 5 jobs because of the necessity to replicate (IE pay the bills, bring food to the table for their family), but they are not necessarily leaders. But I guess if they are passionate about their jobs and their company and going to work, then perhaps their leadership will show. I think leadership comes naturally, and obviously from a passion. You always know. In any project, group, team, whatever, the person who loves where s/he is at and what s/he is doing is gonna be a leader.

edit: dunno about India but in the states women make up about 30% of the MBA class, and a lot of them are gonna be married. ( and unfortunately, not many "hot" women like you say)

[skang357]

Yeah so I just got into Wash U Olin. I am 1 for 4.

Being about to turn 34, I feel it's too late to wait another year to see if I can get into a Cali program next year.

I'm a finance guy who has been transforming more and more to a systems and tech bent over the last few years. Will probably keep pursuing job ops in the finance area (I'm thinking corporate finance or maybe asset mgmt).

I want to work eventually in a big city anywhere in the US, maybe even global.

Does anybody know about this program and does it have the brand and recognition to provide far reaching opportunities or is it a mid west kind of MBA? I have a BS in Finance from UPenn, so at least my undergrad is okay. Will the two combined give me some much needed cred?

Thanks.

[yogami]

OH man that last line does not sound so positive..women will be married and not many hot women? Well how about the college campuses where women from other departments hover around? How about college nights at the local bars? Plenty of time for day game and night game? Obviously you will demonstrate some kind of value to the college crowd when they find out that you are an ivy business school student right and you are older and have the potential to make a lot $$? I think it is easier to hook up at school than at bars and clubs while you are working because you cannot date at work and if you do not have a social circle then you have to rely on making cold approaches to women and those only work when you are "prince charming" However school gives you an opportunity to establish rapport and build a social circle!
Regarding leadership/replication analogy think clearly. The natural tendency of life is to survive and replicate and the leader offers the best survival and replication value to the species as a whole. Leaders are usually attractive to women due to their power and influence and dominance over other men. People who love their families and are doing their 9 to 5 may not be a leader at work but are leaders of their families in some ways. I think those people who think that they are not natural leaders have subconsciously taken leadership roles in their past when it was required but do not realize it. So I think one can transmute himself from a non-leadership role to a leadership role easily if he intends to.

[skang357]

OH man that last line does not sound so positive..women will be married and not many hot women? Well how about the college campuses where women from other departments hover around? How about college nights at the local bars? Plenty of time for day game and night game? Obviously you will demonstrate some kind of value to the college crowd when they find out that you are an ivy business school student right and you are older and have the potential to make a lot $$? I think it is easier to hook up at school than at bars and clubs while you are working because you cannot date at work and if you do not have a social circle then you have to rely on making cold approaches to women and those only work when you are "prince charming" However school gives you an opportunity to establish rapport and build a social circle!
Regarding leadership/replication analogy think clearly. The natural tendency of life is to survive and replicate and the leader offers the best survival and replication value to the species as a whole. Leaders are usually attractive to women due to their power and influence and dominance over other men. People who love their families and are doing their 9 to 5 may not be a leader at work but are leaders of their families in some ways. I think those people who think that they are not natural leaders have subconsciously taken leadership roles in their past when it was required but do not realize it. So I think one can transmute himself from a non-leadership role to a leadership role easily if he intends to.

Good analysis of the leadership theory. Yeah corporate leadership isn't easy but I guess you're gonna have to do it if you wanna be in a position to at least make some good money as well as name for yourself. MBA's do it through the ranks in an established company as an employee, and the lesser chosen alternative is to do it on your own creating your own product and company, which is in my opinion, if you're able to be successful at it, much better in terms of money and peace of mind.

Remember in an MBA program your life will revolve around your class cohorts and the other MBA students. Schools will have their programs housed in separate buildings so even casual interactions will be with other MBA students and you will rarely have interactions from students from other parts of the school. All social events will revolve around other MBA's and this is a big part of the full time MBA experience. I think once in a while you might have a mixer with the law school or med school maybe.

Yeah only around 30% of the class will be female so you will have at least 2 to 1 competition guys to girls. I guess you can go out of your way and try nursing school, or maybe law or medical school.. Maybe take a class out of the MBA school somehow.

I remember this very attractive fellow college student was telling me (she was a junior at the time) how this MBA student was hitting on her and telling her he was going to make over $100K next year. She said something to him to the effect "who cares, you're like 30 years old, gross." But I do remember that there were some undergrad business students who were dating some of the MBA students because the school often cross-listed the MBA and undergrad classes. Yeah the MBA guys that were able to do that were definitely enjoying that experience I'm sure. (although it looked very weird to me, full grown man dating teenagerish woman) No MBA women dating undergrad men however

[DanaJ]

OH man that last line does not sound so positive..women will be married and not many hot women? Well how about the college campuses where women from other departments hover around? How about college nights at the local bars? Plenty of time for day game and night game? Obviously you will demonstrate some kind of value to the college crowd when they find out that you are an ivy business school student right and you are older and have the potential to make a lot $$? I think it is easier to hook up at school than at bars and clubs while you are working because you cannot date at work and if you do not have a social circle then you have to rely on making cold approaches to women and those only work when you are "prince charming"

The way you put it, makes it look like you're trying to get into b-school just to "score points" or whatever superficial (to use a really mild word) system some men use in order to characterize their relationships with women. I dunno, but IMHO you should focus more on the professional side of being a graduate student. In the end, your social competence will be tested in all environments, not only in b-school... If a person is only marginally successful in his/her current environment, then the possibility of a 180-degree turn in his popularity are extremely slim.

And demonstrating your value by being in an Ivy League student.... That's actually pretty funny, since in the end girls that got into the Ivy League school are just as smart and competent as you are! YOU WILL start on equal grounds in terms of future value, so the fact that you'll be worth 100k won't have the slightest impact on your attractiveness!

Again, this is a highly personal opinion, so take it as such. I personally liked the discussion about management/leadership, but did not agree with the opinions about socializing in b-school...


@skang357: Congratulations on your acceptance! UPenn is of course an extremely well-known name... I haven't heard of the program you've mentioned, but if it fits your goals, then go for it!

[skang357]

Totally right Dana, girls in the school aren't gonna care you're a bschool student at their ivy league. They will be one soon as well! On the other hand maybe girls from the school next door might....

[yogami]

Yup that is what I meant. Girls from the school next door and no scoring here. Scoring is for players. And I ain't one!. I personally expect to meet smart women in school and that is guaranteed. Bars and clubs are not my thing and "strictly no dating at work".

[madhur_ahuja]

This is hillarious

[Alpha800]

I don't understand your post. Standard argument format is:

Premise-1: xxx
Premise-2: xxx
Premise-3: xxx

Conclusion: xxx

What is your conclusion?

Are you asserting that because you've found certain people with MBAs who are living mediocre lives, that therefore a MBA is worthless? What happened to the examples of people who have MBAs and who are living extraordinary lives? Those people are the refutation to your assertion.

Or are you asserting that it's not exclusively necessary to have a MBA to have an extraordinary life? Of course this is true.

Your select, and extremely rare, examples of people who had never graduated college but go on to lead very extraordinary lives are fantastically illusory. Yes, we all know Bill Gates never graduated from Harvard--he dropped out--and he became the richest man in the world. Ok, how many other examples can you find? And compare those examples to people who have obtained college/graduate degrees and who have gone on to lead extraordinary lives?

The fact of the matter is this: the examples you cite are all "exceptions to the rule" rather than the "rule". If you're arguing that you are indeed an "exception" to the rule, then more power to you. Go ahead and become the next Bill Gates. But most of us aren't "exceptions" to the rule. We're the majority who make up the "rule". Most of us need this MBA to get ahead. If you don't, fine. Go lead your stellar life without having to obtain the MBA. But somehow I doubt you fall into that "exception to the rule" category. Otherwise you wouldn't be posting on here. You'd be too busy making your billions already.

Lastly--and I think the most relevant rebuttal to your argument--is the concept of "all else being equal". All else being equal, I'd rather have a MBA than not. In all the examples you've given, having a MBA would not have precluded any of those individuals you mentioned from doing exactly the same things they did. In fact, I would argue that having a MBA--actually the knowledge gained from an MBA education--would have contributed to an even greater success than what they did in fact achieve.

Obtaining a MBA education would never, in my opinion, be worse than not obtaining a MBA education. Now if you're arguing that it's financially not worth it, then that's a different argument. It may indeed be the case that for certain individuals, it may not make financial sense to invest in a MBA anymore--e.g. someone in their 50's just trying to start out--but if we exclude the financial factor, more knowledge is always better than less knowledge.

p.s. Your argument is really strange--I guess inconsistent is the only way to put it.

These MBA's, maybe they'll make 200K if they're good a few years after they graduate, but they don't create anything, they don't make really revolutionize anything.

...

Now he dates exotic East European models

So in one sentence you're criticizing that most MBAs have an average life, that they don't create anything and that they don't revolutionize anything. A few sentences later, you're arguing that dating an exotic East European model is really what's it's all about? That's supposedly the lofty goal to which we should all be aspiring? That is just ridiculous.

And of course the business schools, the GMAC, businessweek, the test preps, the admissions consultants, even the University of Phoenix and the Devry Keller School of Business, they all do an amazing job at perpetuating this juggernaut of a big business that is the MBA degree. I know they are getting as much if not more out of this than the students, and I believe in the long run, they are the winners.

You are right to criticize the "big business" aspect of B-Schools. Here's an interesting piece from the New York Times:
https://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/ ... more-10509

Okay so I got dinged by 3 out of 4 schools so far and the one place I'm waiting on, although given the current trend, I think they'll ding me too, I have fears and concerns about wanting to work and live in St Louis.

So I actually spent my friday night looking at linkedin after getting my third ding yesterday. (Sneaky ass MBA admission director called me first, told me they would make a decision by the end of the day or Monday, and then ding me one hour later on their application site)

Looked at one the school's mba program that dinged me (Anderson)'s alumnae(ie)(us).

Then as you start looking at one person's linkedin page, you gradually start looking at other related ones, then you go other people that graduated from different schools (like Harvard).

What did I learn?

Seems that the overriding main theme I see (can be a self selecting sample as maybe people who post their resumes on linkedin are similar or have similar frame of mind) is that these people are all the same.

MBA's are all the same. They all follow this similar recipe or a slight variation of it : go to college (preferably a good one, but if you don't and go to state school instead as long as you get good grades you'll get a decent job).

They for the most part go into their 2 year analyst programs. Then they'll go work for some company like Disney perhaps.

Crunch some numbers, make some spreadsheets.

Then they'll go to a school like Anderson, then they come out. Some will do it at the same time as they work.

If they are really good, they end up at a "prestigious" company like Goldman, maybe Bain, Mck, after graduating.

Do that for two years, then later they join some venture capital company, maybe as a principal.

Others will go work for a start up (maybe internet, maybe wireless, maybe social networking) in some kind of role like "Director of Business Strategy".

And then they'll do this for a few more years and by the time they know it they are already close to 50 years old and then the game is over and now they have to retire or start a dog walking business. ( actually a real example)





I looked at the above, and the same story plays out for all of these MBA people. And the above story only applies to people who graduate from schools at least Anderson or higher ranked.

You can forget about "lesser" schools that are still ranked top 30 but not in the prestige list like the one I applied to because they gave me an admission waiver and is located in St. Louis.

I see people from that school that seem to do well after graduating but then start working in well known companies but not of the "caliber" as Bain, Goldman, etc and they just work as manager, sr. manager, sr. manager of IT global operations, then for some reason they are laid off.

So my point is : is it really worth all the effort and time to go after this degree and live the same career to be the same blueprint model?

These MBA's, maybe they'll make 200K if they're good a few years after they graduate, but they don't create anything, they don't make really revolutionize anything.

They just follow the same model because that's what society tells them to follow. They're just all of the same mold.

In my 10 year career I was fortunate to work for a guy who actually dropped out of college two years before he could graduate start a trading software company and sold it to Etrade for 280 million dollars.

Now he dates exotic East European models and bankrolls major Hollywood films like Babel and Mr. and Mrs. Smith.

Another guy I worked for was not the heavy hitter as the previous guy but still in my definition I would love to be able to reach the success he did. Graduated from USC with degree in accounting, one of the sharpest and polished guys I've ever met, created some kind of web page where he made 250K somehow, with that money launched an Internet ad company, and makes revenue close to 10 million a year for like 15 employees. The guy probably pays the 14 other people around 100K average and pockets the rest of the 8.6 million himself. Not bad at all for a early 30's guy.

See these are the people that change the world and reach the definition of the "success story."

When I take a look at the career paths of these MBA guys, it's all the same. These MBA's pale in comparison to what they do with their careers and careers and lives comparison to people who make a stand and realize that what they learn in school about accounting, and general management, for the most part, you can basically learn from taking a community college course and reading businessweek.

I'm not saying the MBA's are dumber people. I'm sure they had to have excellent memories and problem solving skills to get their 700's.

But, what it is they do lack is perhaps boldness and maybe imagination.

Because they MBA does not teach you that. It doesn't teach you to look for the next trend, or to change the landscape and create your own opportunities.

The MBA is about feeding you business buzz words, the ability to speak those words to people who you think you're impressing them with words "change management" and "best practices" and "greenlit project based on competitive landscape analysis" and some other jargon while you're wearing a suit.

At the very best these MBA types will only be the right hand man for a guy who creates his own company.

I say the MBA is for cookiecutters and for people who would rather devote 2 to 3 years of their lives doing what society tells them to do by devoting their energies to learning what another 100K people learn at the same time so they can make 200K for about 10 years (if they do everything right) and then start a dogwalking business when it's all over.

And of course the business schools, the GMAC, businessweek, the test preps, the admissions consultants, even the University of Phoenix and the Devry Keller School of Business, they all do an amazing job at perpetuating this juggernaut of a big business that is the MBA degree. I know they are getting as much if not more out of this than the students, and I believe in the long run, they are the winners.

Any thoughts?