Ambiguous comparator sentence

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Ambiguous comparator sentence

by sui generis » Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:42 am
Consider this ambiguous sentence: Pluto is closer to Sun than Neptune

It has two meanings as follows:

1) Pluto is closer to Sun than Neptune is = Pluto is closer to Sun than is Neptune ----> Pluto is closer to Sun than Neptune is closer to Sun

2) Pluto is closer to Sun than to Neptune -----> Pluto is closer to Sun than Pluto is closer to Neptune

My simple doubt is: are the above two sentences written correctly, especially the two forms in point 1 separated by "=".

Many thanks.
Source: — Sentence Correction |

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by lunarpower » Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:48 pm
yep -- all good.

in the first one -- if "neptune" were to be followed by a modifier, then you'd want the "...than is neptune" version. with no modifier, both are fine.
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by sui generis » Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:52 pm
Thanks Ron for the prompt reply.

Just couldn't get the last line you wrote.

You mean in point 1 "Pluto is closer to Sun than IS Neptune" IS CORRECT, NOT "Pluto is closer to Sun than Neptune IS" ?

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by sui generis » Fri Sep 30, 2011 11:23 am
Hi Ron,

Firstly, sorry for bumping in an another question in this thread but its related to the same subject.

After reading your post regarding and watching your numerical comparison video (MGMAT Thursday's with Ron), I infer the following:

Example 1: I can lift more weight at the gym than my brother.
This sentence construction following a noun after the comparator (more .... than) is correct as long as: 1) There is no verb tense shift and 2) The meaning is unambiguous. Meaning if the above two conditions are satisfied we can avoid using a preposition or a verb to clarify the meaning.
Source: https://www.beatthegmat.com/comparisons- ... 66230.html

My question or call it doubt is that do the above two rules apply to all the comparators viz. "as many as", "as often as", "twice", "less/lower/better/etc. than" or are there leeways in some cases ?

Example 2:
Twice as many apply to Harvard each year as M.I.T. ----> incorrect
Twice as many apply to Harvard each year as to M.I.T. -----> correct
Although the original sentence does not seem to have any ambiguity (as per aforementioned point 2), we added a preposition "to" to clear the meaning. Why can't we just have the noun MIT as in example 1, in which we had "my brother" as the noun without any preposition or verb.

Example 3:
In the 1980's the rate of increase of the minority population of the United States was nearly twice as fast as the 1970's.
[C] twice what it was in
[E] two times greater than
Similarly in this example, which you also discussed in your video session, you eliminated E solely on the basis that it modifies noun (1970's). Here for E can't we assume (as we did in the example 1 in which we compared to a noun "my brother") that verb "was" is implicit.

To summarize I am confused about cases in which we need to explicitly state a preposition or a verb (like in example 2 and 3) and in which we can compare it directly to a noun unambiguously (like in example 1).

Thanks!

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by lunarpower » Sat Oct 01, 2011 1:41 am
sui generis wrote:Thanks Ron for the prompt reply.

Just couldn't get the last line you wrote.

You mean in point 1 "Pluto is closer to Sun than IS Neptune" IS CORRECT, NOT "Pluto is closer to Sun than Neptune IS" ?
no. in this context, both are fine.

however, if there is a modifier attached to "neptune", then you must actually end the preceding part with "neptune".
e.g.
Pluto is closer to the sun than is Neptune, which moves in a much more eccentric orbit --> correct
Pluto is closer to the sun than Neptune is, which moves in a much more eccentric orbit --> incorrect
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by lunarpower » Sat Oct 01, 2011 1:55 am
sui generis wrote:My question or call it doubt is that do the above two rules apply to all the comparators viz. "as many as", "as often as", "twice", "less/lower/better/etc. than" or are there leeways in some cases ?
these principles should apply in general. i'm hesitant to give any sort of universal guarantee, because some sort of exception can just about always be found to just about anything ... but they should apply almost all the time.
Example 2:
Twice as many apply to Harvard each year as M.I.T. ----> incorrect
Twice as many apply to Harvard each year as to M.I.T. -----> correct
Although the original sentence does not seem to have any ambiguity (as per aforementioned point 2), we added a preposition "to" to clear the meaning. Why can't we just have the noun MIT as in example 1, in which we had "my brother" as the noun without any preposition or verb.
what is the source of this example?
i don't recall seeing this example in the study hall.

this does not seem like a decision that you would have to face on the official test.
Example 3:
In the 1980's the rate of increase of the minority population of the United States was nearly twice as fast as the 1970's.
[C] twice what it was in
[E] two times greater than
Similarly in this example, which you also discussed in your video session, you eliminated E solely on the basis that it modifies noun (1970's). Here for E can't we assume (as we did in the example 1 in which we compared to a noun "my brother") that verb "was" is implicit.
that wouldn't fix the issue; the subject of this part of the comparison would still be the 1970s, not the rate of increase as required.

i.e., if you have the construction as ... as X, then the comparison must actually involve actual "X" itself.
that's not true here -- the comparison is not between the 1980s and the 1970s; it's between a rate in the 1980s and the corresponding rate in the 1970s -- so the sentence would still be incorrect.
To summarize I am confused about cases in which we need to explicitly state a preposition or a verb (like in example 2 and 3) and in which we can compare it directly to a noun unambiguously (like in example 1).
i think you're making this much more difficult than it has to be. remember -- you don't have to be able to *compose* a perfect sentence. all you have to do is pick the option that is BETTER than the other options.
in these kinds of comparisons, just check the parallelism and check whether the correct things are actually being compared. then go for the choice that is better than the other choices in this regard.

you really aren't going to find any simple rules for which words can be omitted -- but, fortunately, you don't have to! that's the beauty of multiple-choice questions.
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by patanjali.purpose » Sat Oct 01, 2011 2:01 am
lunarpower wrote:yep -- all good.

in the first one -- if "neptune" were to be followed by a modifier, then you'd want the "...than is neptune" version. with no modifier, both are fine.
Thanks Ron.

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by lunarpower » Sat Oct 01, 2011 2:04 am
patanjali.purpose wrote:
lunarpower wrote:yep -- all good.

in the first one -- if "neptune" were to be followed by a modifier, then you'd want the "...than is neptune" version. with no modifier, both are fine.
Thanks Ron.
look 2 posts above yours.
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by sui generis » Sat Oct 01, 2011 2:10 am
sui generis wrote:
Thanks Ron for the prompt reply.

Just couldn't get the last line you wrote.

You mean in point 1 "Pluto is closer to Sun than IS Neptune" IS CORRECT, NOT "Pluto is closer to Sun than Neptune IS" ?
no. in this context, both are fine.

however, if there is a modifier attached to "neptune", then you must actually end the preceding part with "neptune".
e.g.
Pluto is closer to the sun than is Neptune, which moves in a much more eccentric orbit --> correct
Pluto is closer to the sun than Neptune is, which moves in a much more eccentric orbit --> incorrect
That is perfect, Ron! Thanks for explaining.

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by patanjali.purpose » Sat Oct 01, 2011 2:27 am
lunarpower wrote:
patanjali.purpose wrote:
lunarpower wrote:yep -- all good.

in the first one -- if "neptune" were to be followed by a modifier, then you'd want the "...than is neptune" version. with no modifier, both are fine.
Thanks Ron.
look 2 posts above yours.
The Dancing Doll line sold slightly more than $3.5 million worth of toys last year, 40% mroe than |||the Teeny Tiny Trucks line did and newarly 3 times as much as the Basic Blocks line's sales|||.

A. the Teeny Tiny Trucks line did and newarly 3 times as much as the Basic Blocks line's sales
B. the Teeny Tiny Trucks did and nearly 3 times what the Basic Blocks' sales were
C. the Teeny Tiny Trucks line sold and nearly 3 times as much as Basic Blocks' sales.
D. the Teeny Tiny Trucks line and nearly 3 times more than Basic Blocks' sales
E. the Teeny Tiny Trucks line and nearly 3 times more than the Basic Blocks line

In the above example, I feel, from comparison perspective both C & E are good, but from parallelism perspective E is better

C - inappropriate parallelism : Dancing Doll LINE ...Teeny Tiny Trucks line (OK)...Basic Blocks' (not OK)..
E - Appropriate parallelism: Dancing Doll LINE ...Teeny Tiny Trucks line (OK)...Basic Blocks LINE (OK)..

Is my above interpretation correct.
Last edited by patanjali.purpose on Sat Oct 01, 2011 3:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by sui generis » Sat Oct 01, 2011 2:28 am
Example 3:
In the 1980's the rate of increase of the minority population of the United States was nearly twice as fast as the 1970's.
[C] twice what it was in
[E] two times greater than
So in the above sentence if we add a preposition in choice E, will that work ?
The rate of increase of XYZ in 1980's was two times greater than in 1970's ----> here (rate of increase of XYZ) would be the ellipsis part.

i think you're making this much more difficult than it has to be. remember -- you don't have to be able to *compose* a perfect sentence. all you have to do is pick the option that is BETTER than the other options.
in these kinds of comparisons, just check the parallelism and check whether the correct things are actually being compared. then go for the choice that is better than the other choices in this regard.

you really aren't going to find any simple rules for which words can be omitted -- but, fortunately, you don't have to! that's the beauty of multiple-choice questions.
Thanks for the advice. I will evaluate among the available options rather than dwelling into perfect compositions. Nonetheless, those two rules are ubiquitous in almost every sentence I came across. So thanks a lot for the foundation part.

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by lunarpower » Sat Oct 01, 2011 3:09 am
patanjali.purpose wrote:A. the Teeny Tiny Trucks line did and newarly 3 times as much as the Basic Blocks line's sales
B. the Teeny Tiny Trucks did and nearly 3 times what the Basic Blocks' sales were
C. the Teeny Tiny Trucks line sold and nearly 3 times as much as Basic Blocks' sales.
D. the Teeny Tiny Trucks line and nearly 3 times more than Basic Blocks' sales
E. the Teeny Tiny Trucks line and nearly 3 times more than the Basic Blocks line

In the above example, I feel, from comparison perspective both C & E are good, but from parallelism perspective E is better

C - in appropriate parallelism : Dancing Doll LINE ...Teeny Tiny Trucks line (OK)...Basic Blocks' (not OK)..
E - Appropriate parallelism: Dancing Doll LINE ...Teeny Tiny Trucks line (OK)...Basic Blocks LINE (OK)..

Is my above interpretation correct. Pls suggest.
in this problem (which is not written in the correct way, by the way -- the underline should ALWAYS start at the first difference in the choices), choice (e) is the only one with proper parallelism. so, yes.

i'm not sure what you are asking me to "suggest".
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by lunarpower » Sat Oct 01, 2011 3:11 am
sui generis wrote:
So in the above sentence if we add a preposition in choice E, will that work ?
The rate of increase of XYZ in 1980's was two times greater than in 1970's ----> here (rate of increase of XYZ) would be the ellipsis part.
that would probably be fine.

i don't think you will ever see "two times" in a correctly written sentence, though, because "twice" is better.

So thanks a lot for the foundation part.
sure.
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by patanjali.purpose » Sat Oct 01, 2011 3:25 am
lunarpower wrote:
patanjali.purpose wrote:A. the Teeny Tiny Trucks line did and newarly 3 times as much as the Basic Blocks line's sales
B. the Teeny Tiny Trucks did and nearly 3 times what the Basic Blocks' sales were
C. the Teeny Tiny Trucks line sold and nearly 3 times as much as Basic Blocks' sales.
D. the Teeny Tiny Trucks line and nearly 3 times more than Basic Blocks' sales
E. the Teeny Tiny Trucks line and nearly 3 times more than the Basic Blocks line

In the above example, I feel, from comparison perspective both C & E are good, but from parallelism perspective E is better

C - in appropriate parallelism : Dancing Doll LINE ...Teeny Tiny Trucks line (OK)...Basic Blocks' (not OK)..
E - Appropriate parallelism: Dancing Doll LINE ...Teeny Tiny Trucks line (OK)...Basic Blocks LINE (OK)..

Is my above interpretation correct. Pls suggest.
in this problem (which is not written in the correct way, by the way -- the underline should ALWAYS start at the first difference in the choices), choice (e) is the only one with proper parallelism. so, yes.

i'm not sure what you are asking me to "suggest".
Thanks. It's useful - I have edited my previous post.

Thanks

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by mundasingh123 » Sat Oct 01, 2011 5:02 am
on ,
Could you please tell whether E in the SC below would have beenn correct , had E been "two times greater than IN "
In the 1980's the rate of increase of the minority population of the United States was nearly twice as fast as the 1970's.

[C] twice what it was in
[E] two times greater than


I found the example in one of the posts created by a btg member in this thread . So i decided to tinker with the option and see whether putting a preposition would make the comparison better .
I Seek Explanations Not Answers