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by gmat25 » Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:07 am
Frankenstein wrote:Image
Please explain each answer choice.
OA is A
Expert comments would be appreciated!
Is this a complete question??? I mean only surgeon's statement was given and we are asked to strengthen the patient's position.
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by Frankenstein » Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:09 am
I am sorry. I have edited my post now.
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by gmat25 » Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:37 am
Frankenstein wrote:I am sorry. I have edited my post now.
Thanks for editing, initially that unedited version made me crazy and eat up my much time. Anyways, Only Op A seems to be the correct answer

patient says X causes Y

surgeon says NO Z cause Y

so any ans choice which suggests Z does not causes Y is the correct answer. Op A does the same thing here. Also,

Op B is irrelevant

Op C we have no info that the patient is living in conditions which possess 200 degree temp. or experiencing such temperature

Op D seems little relevant but unable to undermine the surgeon that "your surgery was so recent" only if Op D misses this info because that article didn't suggest anything about recent surgery

Op E irrelevant
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by Frankenstein » Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:53 am
Hi,
Thanks for your reply. I posted this because I am concerned only about A and C.
patient says X causes Y
Surgeon says X is definitely not causing Y, and Z is causing Y
So, correct answer can be either Z doesn't cause Y or something that strengthens X causing Y.
A is addressing the first one and C is addressing the second one. In fact A is weakening Surgeon's claim and C is strengthening patient's claim.
Op C we have no info that the patient is living in conditions which possess 200 degree temp. or experiencing such temperature
I am not convinced with this. With the same logic we can say, we have no info that the patient hasn't followed instructions.
But this very logic is incorrect because, in strengthening questions, you can have info. which is not stated in the stimulus.
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by gmat25 » Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:49 am
Frankenstein wrote:
Op C we have no info that the patient is living in conditions which possess 200 degree temp. or experiencing such temperature
I am not convinced with this. With the same logic we can say, we have no info that the patient hasn't followed instructions.
But this very logic is incorrect because, in strengthening questions, you can have info. which is not stated in the stimulus.
Bro, first of all notice the difference in the way Op A and Op C are written

Op A: - The patient has not followed post operative instructions...(a specific statement about that same patient referred in the argument--since Q stem said if all the Op's are true that means the mentioned patient has not followed post operative instructions...its a rigid statement not a flexible one )

Op C:-- The patient has...bla bla bla....when exposed to temperatures higher than....(the part in red is conditional..means we are not sure...that condition may had happened or may not...not a rigid one but a flexible one )

One more flaw in notice in Op C now is the use of word "few weeks"...now see...the surgeon said that Your (patient) surgery is so recent and patient's hip property to wear out at certain temp. will be in effect after few weeks...here if u try to understand u can not say few weeks means so recent...so recent may be 2-3 days or may include this few weeks thing..

U may think that m thinking too much but one thing i learned in CR is closely notice all the quantity indicators.
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by David@VeritasPrep » Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:45 am
GMAT 25 is on target here.

Did you notice the language. GMAT 25 mentions quantifiers, but I would look to other descriptive words, adjectives and adverbs, that did not have to be here. This stimulus says "normal" use. With that my mind immediately went to -- "What about not normal use?" It is always important to look for things that are said in the argument - that do not have to be said. "Normal use" is such a thing. It sets up choice A perfectly. The physician comments only pertain to normal use. This was not normal but rigorous.

One more thing about choice C -- you are allowed to use some "universal" knowledge and logic. It is true that the stimulus does not say whether the person had been exposed to heat of 200 degrees. But we know that 200 degrees Fahrenheit - not too mention Celcius! - is too high. It is not logical that a person's hip is exposed to this...

So while specific outside knowledge is not allowed, we can say that certain universal truths are self-evident.
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by Frankenstein » Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:54 am
Thanks for your comments gmat25 and David.
If C were:
The patient has an artificial hip that is made of a material that begins to wear out after a few weeks when exposed to temperatures higher than 40 degrees.
Would it be fine?
Op C:-- The patient has...bla bla bla....when exposed to temperatures higher than....(the part in red is conditional..means we are not sure...that condition may had happened or may not...not a rigid one but a flexible one)
Moreover, I feel C is not 100% certain, because of usage of 'can begin' rather than the one highlighted because I don't think 'when' is conditional.
One important reason for my choosing of C over A was I felt C talks the point the patient has explicitly stated. So, I felt it is better to strengthen that because the question is to strengthen patient's position.
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by gmat25 » Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:17 am
Hi David

Thanks a lot for your post...as @frank mentioned in his above post, if If C were:

The patient has an artificial hip that is made of a material that begins to wear out after a few weeks when exposed to temperatures higher than 40 degrees.
Would it be fine?

I believe that still Op A is better than Op C and my reasoning is
Op C:-- The patient has...bla bla bla....when exposed to temperatures higher than....(the part in red is conditional..means we are not sure...that condition may had happened or may not...not a rigid one but a flexible one)

while Op A: - The patient has not followed post operative instructions...(a specific statement about that same patient referred in the argument--since Q stem said if all the Op's are true that means the mentioned patient has not followed post operative instructions...its a rigid statement not a flexible one ) ---> perfect
Sir, i just want to know is my approach correct over here???? Your input will be really helpful.
Thanks
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by David@VeritasPrep » Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:59 am
GMAT25 and Frankenstein -


Here is what GMAT25 is saying - in slightly different terms. When examining choice A: the stimulus sets up a condition for the Physician to say that the patient's pain is not caused by wearing away the particles on the hip. The physician is saying your pain is not from wear because "NORMAL USE" will not cause wear this soon. So the condition is that if it is "NORMAL USE" then the pain is not from the hip wearing away particles.

Now choice A comes along and violates the condition. It is not "NORMAL USE" so the condition is violated and the physician's assurance does not apply here.

So with A we know that there is this condition in the stimulus "NORMAL USE"...AND that the condition is violated in answer choice A with the rigorous use.

In C we only have half of this. The stimulus does not set up the condition of 200 degrees or 40 degrees or whatever. So the only way that C could be correct is if it sets up AND violates the condition right there in the answer choice. C does set up a condition, 200 degrees (or in the hypothetical you present, 20 degrees.

Here is the difference and this is what GMAT25 is saying, we do not know if this temperature condition has been violated. The point is not that it could be violated - 40 degrees makes it more logical that if could be violated and - quite frankly - might be a better answer choice to make this problem more difficult, since it would be more appealing, but still not correct.

Choice A works with the stimulus to produce a condition and to then violate the condition, meaning that the physician's remarks do not apply to the case. Choice C only creates a condition that may or may not be violated.

How's that?
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by Frankenstein » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:27 am
Hi,
Got it now. Learnt a new thing. Thanks a lot!
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by winniethepooh » Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:21 pm
The question is asking which of the following most sthrengthens the position of the patient's discomfort. So shouldn't the answer be different?
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by David@VeritasPrep » Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:32 pm
Basically this is asking us to strengthen the cause that the patient mentions as the source of her discomfort.

So if we make it likely that it is the wearing of the hip as the patient alleges we have done our job!
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by winniethepooh » Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:20 pm
I know this is asking for too much on a single thread, would you be able to give me the example of such questions in the OG?
What I mean is , questions which use the words "strengthen the position of" but the answer is a bit different. Like the question we're discussing!
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by David@VeritasPrep » Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:50 pm
But we are "strengthening the position of..."

the patient's "position" is that the cause of the pain is deterioration of the hip.

The physician says, "not possible with normal wear"

The correct answer indicates that this is not normal wear.

To my view this clearly strengthens the patient's position. Yes?
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