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idiom - so as to be

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dazzle: Junior | Next Rank: 30 Posts; Posts: 15; Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:01 am

by dazzle » Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:55 pm

Hey all,

Can someone tell me whether the idiom - "so as to be" is correct or incorrect..
Some sources say it is correct while others say it isnt..
Am a little confused

Also, is the idiom "so as to" correct or incorrect ?

Thanks

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Source: Beat The GMAT — Sentence Correction | Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:55 pm

Isaac@EconomistGMAT: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 97; Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:39 amFollowed by: 20 members; Location: Montreal, Canada; Thanked: 22 times

by Isaac@EconomistGMAT » Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:47 pm

Hi

The idiom so as to is considered awkward. See the GMAT Official Guide (#65). In other words, expressions such as this are overly wordy. Always a good idea to look at the official material so as to be able to determine what is proper usage.

However, in terms of usage, this idiom is not actually incorrect (the official guide even uses it in its explanations!). What usually happens is that these idioms are not incorrect but you can probably say the same thing in fewer words OR oftentimes this idiom wrong not because of the construction of the idiom but because it expresses what it wants to express wrongly or the sentence is simply not clear.

For example: The man wished to divorce his wife so as to go on a trip

Although it would seem clear that the man will go on a trip, it is not 100% clear who will go on a trip.

Therefore, look for other mistakes to eliminate the answer choice before you deal with the idiom, going from grammar mistakes first to stylistic errors (unless you are sure the idiom is wrong).

Isaac Bettan
Academic Director
Master GMAT
https://econgm.at/EconomistGMAT
[youtube]QBNZczg84tU[/youtube]

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Rezinka: Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts; Posts: 131; Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:39 am; Location: New Delhi, India; Thanked: 11 times

by Rezinka » Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:26 pm

I'd read somewhere ( BTG Flashcards I guess

) that so as to be is considered incorrect while so.. as to be is correct.

E.g. : He works hard so as to get a better remuneration.... INCORRECT
Her debts are so extreme as to threaten her company.... CORRECT

Same with so as to be.

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ashforgmat: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 71; Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2010 9:16 pm; Thanked: 3 times; GMAT Score:750

by ashforgmat » Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:44 am

Agree with Rezinka even i have read the same...

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Isaac@EconomistGMAT: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 97; Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:39 amFollowed by: 20 members; Location: Montreal, Canada; Thanked: 22 times

by Isaac@EconomistGMAT » Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:08 am

OK Folks,

although the official guide (ie the book put out by the official test writers) is sometimes contradictory itself (!), please make sure you look at such a source too!

In response to the above about so X as to Y, this is what the official guide (12th edition) had to say (refer to number 37, among others):

The construction so x as to y is not a correct idiom.

.

Please take this into consideration. Chances of getting this on the real exam are small, but it appears enough in the official guides that you should store this info somewhere.

AND strangely enough, whenever such expressions appear in other questions/answer choices, they explain this as awkward, but do not mention specifically that this idiom is awkward. #37 does say so very explicitly.

Isaac Bettan
Academic Director
Master GMAT
https://econgm.at/EconomistGMAT
[youtube]QBNZczg84tU[/youtube]

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dazzle: Junior | Next Rank: 30 Posts; Posts: 15; Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:01 am

by dazzle » Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:17 am

Thanks Isaac,

So am I to assume that both the sentences below are incorrect?

He works hard so as to get a better remuneration....
Her debts are so extreme as to threaten her company....

Is "so as to" in either format never correct ?

Also,
How about "so..as to be" and "so as to be"?

Thanks

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Brian@VeritasPrep: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 1031; Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 1:23 pmFollowed by: 255 members; Location: Malibu, CA; Thanked: 716 times; GMAT Score:750

by Brian@VeritasPrep » Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:48 am

Hey guys,

This thread is a great example of why you should:

1) Save idiomatic decisions until after you have exhausted the other categories (verb tense, subj-verb agreement, etc.)

2) Spend your time studying the big-picture things and not trying to master individual idioms

As Isaac points out, there is a line in the OG that says that, in a particular answer choice, "so X as to Y" is an incorrect idiom.

But the following is also an Official Guide question in which "so x as to y" is the correct answer!

The Emperor Augustus, it appears, commissioned an idealized sculptured portrait, the features of which are so unrealistic as to constitute what one scholar calls an "artificial face."

(A) so unrealistic as to constitute
(B) so unrealistic they constituted
(C) so unrealistic that they have constituted
(D) unrealistic enough so that they constitute
(E) unrealistic enough so as to constitute

There are simply too many case-specific idiomatic applications to become great at all of them, and for the GMAT to even want you to. Focus on systematic errors (in this case, verb tense helps you eliminate most errors) and you'll have a much higher ROI on your study time.

Brian Galvin
GMAT Instructor
Chief Academic Officer
Veritas Prep

Looking for GMAT practice questions? Try out the Veritas Prep Question Bank. Learn More.

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Isaac@EconomistGMAT: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 97; Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:39 amFollowed by: 20 members; Location: Montreal, Canada; Thanked: 22 times

by Isaac@EconomistGMAT » Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:07 am

Indeed,

Thanks for putting up the counter example (This was from an older Guide, was it not?)

That was exactly the point I was making when this whole thread started.

The Official Guide/s is/are sometimes inconsistent. So while you find an example of its wrong use, as previously stated you will find the idiom in correct form and you will even find it several times in their own explanations! This idiom (and many others) can be eliminated (or kept) once you have exhausted all the other must eliminate answer choices. Also, as stated, with these types of idioms, the answer choice is usually eliminated because of awkwardness - there will usually be something else in the sentence that proves to be awkward.

So please, with Idioms beware. Keep them to the end and when looking at official material just be careful; some idioms you need to learn by heart (as they will not be debatable), but for the ones that are this debatable, this should give you a strong clue as to not waste to much time determining its 'rightness', because even the real GMAT people are not always on the mark!

Isaac Bettan
Academic Director
Master GMAT
https://econgm.at/EconomistGMAT
[youtube]QBNZczg84tU[/youtube]

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Nina1987: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 79; Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:56 amFollowed by: 1 member; GMAT Score:750

by Nina1987 » Sat Jul 02, 2016 9:52 pm

so sth as to is a correct idiom. here is another example from official source-

Often major economic shifts are so gradual as to be indistinguishable at first from ordinary fluctuations in the financial markets.
A. so gradual as to be indistinguishable
B. so gradual so that they can be indistinguishable
C. so gradual that they are unable to be distinguished
D. gradual enough not to be distinguishable
E. gradual enough so that one cannot distinguish them

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GMATGuruNY: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 15539; Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 12:04 pmFollowed by: 1906 members; Location: New York, NY; Thanked: 13060 times; GMAT Score:790

by GMATGuruNY » Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:54 am

Incorrect: so as to
Correct: so X as to Y

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Nina1987: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 79; Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:56 amFollowed by: 1 member; GMAT Score:750

by Nina1987 » Tue Jul 05, 2016 7:18 am

Hi GMATGuru:

Of course I agree. I didnt mean to say that 'so as to' is correct. I wrote so sth as to to mean exactly what you're saying here as so X as to Y . I think i should have been more clear by adding the sth too as in so sth as to sth

Thanks for your comment and pasting that link here. It goes into further details of the idiom.

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