this is confusing..

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by goelmohit2002 » Thu Jul 09, 2009 6:51 am
thanks scooby.

But the problem is that why "that" is not refering to fixtures...or styles of fixtures....why it is going so back to market ?

Basically how to identify in these sort of sentences what the relative pronoun is refering to....

the immediately preceding noun or the noun phrase...

Thanks

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by scoobydooby » Thu Jul 09, 2009 7:01 am
a market (for bygone styles of furniture and fixtures) that is bringing back the a, b and c

the subject is "market" and takes a singular verb "is"
that refers to "market", says what effect the market has.

"for bygone styles of furniture and fixtures" modifies the market, describes what type of market and this noun phrase has to be placed next to market.
also note "the bygone styles of furniture and fixtures" is not in a subjective case and so cant take a verb "is". only a subject can take a verb.
so "that" must refer to market and not "bygone styles of furniture and fixtures"

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by goelmohit2002 » Thu Jul 09, 2009 7:41 am
scoobydooby wrote:
also note "the bygone styles of furniture and fixtures" is not in a subjective case and so cant take a verb "is". only a subject can take a verb.
so "that" must refer to market and not "bygone styles of furniture and fixtures"
Hi scooby,

Either I am misinterpreting you or it looks that OG does not match what you are saying above. OG says as below....so it looks that choices A, C are not kicked out by on the basis of the "only subject can take the verb"...

I am really confused by these type of relative pronoun modifiers....why not "that are"....why can't fixtures bring back the things....

==========================================

"In addition, all of the choices except B use plural verbs after that, thus illogically stating either that bygone styles of furniture and fixtures, or fixtures alone, are reviving the particular pieces mentioned; it is instead the market for those styles that is bringing back such pieces, as B states."
=======================================

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by scoobydooby » Thu Jul 09, 2009 7:48 am
some of the choices use the plural "are" to make it seem that the subject is "bygone styles of furniture and fixtures" and not "market"

the point to note is that the subject here is "market". the noun phrase merely modifies the market

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by Stacey Koprince » Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:31 am
Received a PM asking me to reply.

Goel, yes, the chaise lounge is being brought back. The chaise lounge is mentioned as an example of the "bygone styles" that are being brought back. So the styles are being brought back in general, and examples of the styles being brought back are the chaise lounge, etc.

We're not supposed to address OG questions online anymore (that's why the OG threads are locked on our forums), but the poster who PM'ed me specifically asked about how to tell what noun (or noun phrase) the "that" modifier refers to, so I'll address that without really diving specifically into the OG problem much (since I'm not supposed to do that!).

Most of the time, the "that" modifier is going to refer to the noun immediately preceding the "that." There are exceptions, though, most typically when the noun immediately preceding is part of some short descriptive phrase (most often a prepositional phrase) that describes a main noun. In those cases, the "that" modifier can refer to the main noun.

She possessed an aura of invincibility that impressed those around her.

"that impressed..." is modifying "aura," not "invincibility." The "of invincibility" modifier provides a necessary description of the word "aura" - otherwise, we wouldn't quite know what we were talking about. The "of invincibility" modifier is subordinate to and a necessary descriptor of "aura," so "aura" is the main noun here.

Similarly, let's examine "a market for impossibly cute toys that is bringing back the Beanie Baby and Elmo."

What is bringing back the Beanie Baby and Elmo? The fact that there's a market for this stuff. What about "the impossibly cute toys"? That's just a necessary descriptor for the market: it's not just any market, it's an "impossibly-cute-toy market."

Further, it would be illogical to say that "the impossibly cute toys" are bringing back the Beanie Baby and Elmo. These are merely examples of the impossibly cute toys, so we'd basically be saying that the impossibly cute toys are bringing back the impossibly cute toys. Illogical. :)

The lesson here: it is actually okay for "that" (or "which" or the like) to refer to a main noun that is shortly before the comma but not immediately before the comma, as long as the stuff between the main noun and the comma = a subordinate, necessary descriptor.
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by goelmohit2002 » Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:08 am
Thanks Stacey for your awesome reply !!!.

But can you please look at the following question, where in option B, why "which" is not modifying the immediately preceding noun phrase....or do you think there is some other reason to reach to answer E in the below link:

https://www.beatthegmat.com/publishing-d ... 24630.html

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by Stacey Koprince » Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:59 pm
In the other one (following that link), "in the country" is placed between then noun and the "which" in choice B, but it is pulled in front in choice E (country's... market).

Given a choice between the two, we prefer NOT to have that descriptor cutting between the noun and the modifier. E gives us a better option because it avoids doing that.

Most of the time, when you do see some necessary descriptor cutting between the noun and the modifier in a correct answer, it wouldn't really make sense to place the description elsewhere in the sentence.
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by goelmohit2002 » Sun Aug 02, 2009 6:42 am
Stacey Koprince wrote:In the other one (following that link), "in the country" is placed between then noun and the "which" in choice B, but it is pulled in front in choice E (country's... market).

Given a choice between the two, we prefer NOT to have that descriptor cutting between the noun and the modifier. E gives us a better option because it avoids doing that.

Most of the time, when you do see some necessary descriptor cutting between the noun and the modifier in a correct answer, it wouldn't really make sense to place the description elsewhere in the sentence.
Thanks Stacey!!!

But can you please tell can this be the primary reason to kick out the options ? Like for example in the link above...

i.e. if we have splits like

a) noun + descriptor, modifier
b) noun, modifier

Can we straightaway kick out(as primary reason) all the options that contain the pattern "a"....and only focus on options containing "b"....

or we need to look for other grammar errors first and then use the above rule as tie braker ?

Many Thanks Again
Mohit

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by Stacey Koprince » Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:27 am
tiebreak. Whenever I write that something is "preferred" - that's automatically a tiebreak. Deal with other stuff first and only deal with the "preference" if you have to.

When it's simply right vs. wrong, I'll say so!
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by goelmohit2002 » Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:39 am
Stacey Koprince wrote:tiebreak. Whenever I write that something is "preferred" - that's automatically a tiebreak. Deal with other stuff first and only deal with the "preference" if you have to.

When it's simply right vs. wrong, I'll say so!
Thanks a lot Stacey...if this is to be used as tie braker then in the above link:

i.e. https://www.beatthegmat.com/publishing-d ... 24630.html

why are we preferring E over B...

E looks to be total unidiomatic....but B has the modifier issue as we discussed....which one to prefer when ?

Can you please help ?

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by Stacey Koprince » Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:00 pm
you can say "to X from Y" or "from X to Y." The latter construction is more common, but the former one isn't wrong. So there's no idiom problem in either.

So, E wins over B, because E says the same thing in the modifier area without opening up some uncertainty by placing the prepositional phrase "in the country" between market and the which modifier. Basically, E is cleaner.
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by goelmohit2002 » Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:07 pm
Stacey Koprince wrote:you can say "to X from Y" or "from X to Y." The latter construction is more common, but the former one isn't wrong. So there's no idiom problem in either.

So, E wins over B, because E says the same thing in the modifier area without opening up some uncertainty by placing the prepositional phrase "in the country" between market and the which modifier. Basically, E is cleaner.
Thanks a ton Stacey !!!!

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by A.Kiran » Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:35 am
So.


There can be a thumb rule like thing for using the WHICH clause


1. When there is Noun(extended noun phrase),which...


Here Which refers to the Noun, and not the antecedent nouns (of the extended noun phrase)



2. In all other cases, like
Noun (Preposition phrase),Which


Here which refers not to the NOUN but to the antecedent noun.



Is this the essence ?

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by Stacey Koprince » Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:40 am
Most of the time, a "which" modifier should refer to the immediately preceding noun (the one right before the comma).

There is an exception when you have:

<main noun> <essential defining modifier>, <which modifier>

That essential modifier could be an appositive (The girl named Sue, who had brown hair...)
or it could be a prepositional phrase (Among the several boxes of construction items, the box of nails, which was sitting on the shelf...)

The key is that the intervening modifier should be something that is essential to the basic meaning / understanding of the main noun. If I just say "the box, which was sitting on the shelf..." - well, what am I talking about? If there's only one box, then maybe we don't have to say what's in it, but what if there are multiple boxes? Which box am I talking about? "The box of nails"? Oh, okay, now I know which box - that's an essential modifier.

So that's really the key idea - an essential modifier that defines the main noun in some necessary way.
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by A.Kiran » Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:57 pm
thanks @ stacey

This made me clear