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Population question

by akshatgupta87 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:55 am
Q.)In the 1970's an elite preschool in New York City had approximately 150 applications per year, and by the 1990's, this number rose to 3,000.
a) this number rose
b) the number had risen
c) the amount had risen
d) this number was raised
e) the number of applications had risen

Someone explain.
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by vineeshp » Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:25 am
Answer B.

A: this number seems to be pointing to 1990 here. rose to doesnt seem to fit here.
B: had risen is perfect.
C: Amount: number of applications is not an amount. It is a count.
D: Nobody deliberately raised this number. So was raised is not the right usage.
E: Wordy, repeated words.
Vineesh,
Just telling you what I know and think. I am not the expert. :)
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by atulmangal » Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:29 am
IMO B

Past perfect tense is required...Op E is wordy "of applications" not needed
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by aspirant2011 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:11 am
Hi Vineeshp,

Can you clear my one doubt i.e you have mentioned that "this number" can't refer to 1990 but if we see option A then we are using possessive form of 1990's then how can "this number" refer to 1990??????

for example if i say japan's buildings then in this case we are focussing on buildings not Japan, am i right????? please correct me if i am wrong...........
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by akshatgupta87 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:27 am
why do we need past perfect tense here.
can't we have simple past?
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by atulmangal » Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:44 am
akshatgupta87 wrote:why do we need past perfect tense here.
can't we have simple past?
Good question, many people initially have this confusion, because we are generally habitual to use past perfect when we find a past tense already there in the sentence...

let me clear...suppose you are sitting with your friend in 2011 (your present time frame) and right now assume your age 30 yrs...now said this to your friend...

By the age of 15, i had won many competitions in my school.---> correct..why lets see

If you remember, we use past perfect when 2 past actions are involved...now you may think where are the two past actions in the above example..so let me show you..

Time frame 1:-- you are sitting in 2011

Time frame 2:--first past action, you are talking about the year 1996 (when you are 15 yrs old)

Time frame 3:--before 1996 you had won many competitions (more past action occurred before 1996)

SO you see actually three time frames are there, the moment you say by the age of 30, u indicate a past action 1 without using any past tense verb and since before that you won competitions so more past means past perfect...

I hope this help...try to think..initially i also struggled in this...but once i got the feel m through...

Thanks
Atul
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by akshatgupta87 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:51 am
yeah..thanks... :)
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by vineeshp » Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:57 am
aspirant2011 wrote:Hi Vineeshp,

Can you clear my one doubt i.e you have mentioned that "this number" can't refer to 1990 but if we see option A then we are using possessive form of 1990's then how can "this number" refer to 1990??????

for example if i say japan's buildings then in this case we are focussing on buildings not Japan, am i right????? please correct me if i am wrong...........
Actually, you are correct. But here, this is not exactly possessive. 1990s means in the period 1990 to 1999. Not exactly to say belonging to 1990.

Hey Atul, Brilliant post. :)
Vineesh,
Just telling you what I know and think. I am not the expert. :)
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by Target2009 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:17 am
+1 to B.

Grt Post Atul..
Regards
Abhishek
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by atulmangal » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:41 pm
@vineeshp and @target

Thanks guys..
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by champmag » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:22 pm
@Atul:

If I am presemtly in 2011 and I say that in 1970's the elite pre- school in New York City "had" 150 applications( this is a past perfect time frame). Shouldn't it be followed by a simple past time frame...And by 1990's this number rose to 3000.? Please correct me if I am going in the wrong direction.
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by atulmangal » Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:19 am
champmag wrote:@Atul:

If I am presemtly in 2011 and I say that in 1970's the elite pre- school in New York City "had" 150 applications( this is a past perfect time frame). Shouldn't it be followed by a simple past time frame...And by 1990's this number rose to 3000.? Please correct me if I am going in the wrong direction.
Hi, let me try once again...see you are sitting in 2011 and you make two statements...and the statements are:--

1) I won the gold medal in 1999.---correct why???

see, here the use of simple past is correct not past perfect.because you are talking about only one past time frame...i;e the year 1999....you are not talking about what happened earlier etc.
That means you fix a point in past (year 1999) and talked about what happened at that particular point...or what happened in year 1999

2) By the age of 15, i had won many competitions in my school.----correct

I will try to explain this same example in a better way. See in this example, "By the age of 15" this fix a point certain point in past (suppose 1999 when you become 15 years old)...with reference to your present time frame 2011, It fixes a time frame or a point in past, and that point is when you become 15 years old...

Now see, you want to describe what you did upto 15yrs old in other words before getting 15 years old...right??? so first you fixes a point in past and now going beyond that in past..in these cases what we use?? past perfect right...so do you get how 2-past actions are involved...

Moreover, the fixing of point (i.e year 1999 when you become 15yr old) is actually a state not action but its okay as the state is also in past and then we talked about something happened before that and that is our second action hence past perfect

Hope this helps
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by David@VeritasPrep » Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:18 pm
I got a PM asking me to take a look at this topic. I find that atulmangal has explained brilliantly!

What a nice explanation!
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by rohu27 » Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:44 pm
great post Atul. you explained it so well.
i was looking to connect the past perfect to the earlier part of the sentence and it obviously made no sense.
your explanation of by the 1990's X had happened made it clear.
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by atulmangal » Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:07 pm
@ David and @Rohu

Thanks a lot for your appreciation...i have never scored more than 60% marks in English in school :(...your appreciation boost up my confidence in SC

Thanks again, Regards
Atul
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