Finding of a survey

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Finding of a survey

by ektamatta » Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:29 pm

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Finding of a survey of Systems magazine subscribers: Thirty percent of all merchandise
orders placed by subscribers in response to advertisements in the magazine last year were
placed by subscribers under age thirty-five.
Finding of a survey of advertisers in Systems magazine: Most of the merchandise orders
placed in response to advertisements in Systems last year were placed by people under
age thirty-five.
For both of the findings to be accurate, which of the following must be true?
A. More subscribers to Systems who have never ordered merchandise in response to
advertisements in the magazine are age thirty-five or over than are under age
thirty-five.
B. Among subscribers to Systems, the proportion who are under age thirty-five was
considerably lower last year than it is now.
C. Most merchandise orders placed in response to advertisements in Systems last
year were placed by Systems subscribers over age thirty-five.
D. Last year, the average dollar amount of merchandise orders placed was less for
subscribers under age thirty-five than for those age thirty-five or over.
E. Last year many people who placed orders for merchandise in response to
advertisements in Systems were not subscribers to the magazine
OA is E
Source: — Critical Reasoning |

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by senthil » Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:52 am

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is OA E?

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by raunekk » Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:35 am

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i think its E..

keywords are ="30%" from 1st sentence and "many"(suppose 50% to 99%) from second sentence...(common set=under the age of 35=suppose 100)
1.30%(30) =subscribers!!means 70% (70)=non subscribers(for magazines)...(out of common set 100)

2.many placed orders=50% to 99%-for merchandise


from 1&2..we can deduce that only that 30 subscribe for magazine,
whereas 50-99 placed order for merchandise...
that means even if there are people in common who did both(subscribe magazines and placed orders)..there are only 30 out of 100...
that means there many(50 to 99) who placed order for merchandise were not subscribers for magazine...

i hope this help...( remember common set is under the age of 35)

refer charu notes for this kind of question...

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by agent47 » Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:14 am

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Answer is :E

Read this line

Finding of a survey of advertisers in Systems magazine: Most of the merchandise orders
placed in response to advertisements in Systems last year were placed by people under
age thirty-five.

It hardly mentions that they are subscribers but the previous magazine research reveals that all were subscribers!!

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by Sprite_TM » Tue May 05, 2009 6:17 pm

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i dont understand...help!

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by mmslf75 » Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:27 pm

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raunekk wrote:i think its E..

keywords are ="30%" from 1st sentence and "many"(suppose 50% to 99%) from second sentence...(common set=under the age of 35=suppose 100)
1.30%(30) =subscribers!!means 70% (70)=non subscribers(for magazines)...(out of common set 100)

2.many placed orders=50% to 99%-for merchandise


from 1&2..we can deduce that only that 30 subscribe for magazine,
whereas 50-99 placed order for merchandise...
that means even if there are people in common who did both(subscribe magazines and placed orders)..there are only 30 out of 100...
that means there many(50 to 99) who placed order for merchandise were not subscribers for magazine...

i hope this help...( remember common set is under the age of 35)

refer charu notes for this kind of question...
Q1 MOST / MANY / MORE imply more than 50 % ???
Q 2 What about usage of SOME ?? Will "some" mean less than 50 % ??

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by lunarpower » Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:02 pm

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mmslf75 wrote:Q1 MOST / MANY / MORE imply more than 50 % ???
Q 2 What about usage of SOME ?? Will "some" mean less than 50 % ??
"most" is more than 50%.

"more" means ... more. it means more than whatever statistic is cited.
e.g. "more than 25%"; "more than 50%". you can't just say "more" by itself.

"many" doesn't indicate any particular percentage. USUALLY it's used to refer to amounts that are "sizable" (i.e., not a tiny tiny fraction), but short of a majority.
e.g., if my team has 50 athletes, most native speakers would interpret "many of my athletes qualified for the finals" as meaning somewhere around 15-20 out of 50.

"some" also doesn't indicate any particular percentage, but, qualitatively, it's between "a few" and "many".
e.g., if my team has 50 athletes, most native speakers would interpret "some of my athletes qualified for the finals" as meaning somewhere around 5-15 out of 50.
Ron has been teaching various standardized tests for 20 years.

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by mmslf75 » Sat Dec 19, 2009 6:24 am

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lunarpower wrote:
mmslf75 wrote:Q1 MOST / MANY / MORE imply more than 50 % ???
Q 2 What about usage of SOME ?? Will "some" mean less than 50 % ??
"most" is more than 50%.

"more" means ... more. it means more than whatever statistic is cited.
e.g. "more than 25%"; "more than 50%". you can't just say "more" by itself.

"many" doesn't indicate any particular percentage. USUALLY it's used to refer to amounts that are "sizable" (i.e., not a tiny tiny fraction), but short of a majority.
e.g., if my team has 50 athletes, most native speakers would interpret "many of my athletes qualified for the finals" as meaning somewhere around 15-20 out of 50.

"some" also doesn't indicate any particular percentage, but, qualitatively, it's between "a few" and "many".
e.g., if my team has 50 athletes, most native speakers would interpret "some of my athletes qualified for the finals" as meaning somewhere around 5-15 out of 50.

Oh thanks

Do u mean that MANY and SOME can take any values... less than 50 % or greater..!! ??

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by Testluv » Sat Dec 19, 2009 11:36 am

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Yes; technically, they can. Technically, "many" and "some" just mean "one or anything greater" although the best interpretation of "many" on the GMAT is, as ron said, "quite a few but short of a majority." Also, "many" and "few" behave as contrasts. Eg: "Many TV shows are great" = "Few TV shows aren't great".
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by lunarpower » Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:43 pm

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mmslf75 wrote:Oh thanks

Do u mean that MANY and SOME can take any values... less than 50 % or greater..!! ??
please go back and read my post again; i already addressed this exact issue.

both of these words are normally used to refer to quantities that are BELOW 50%. "some" is normally used to refer to smaller quantities than "many".
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by lunarpower » Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:55 pm

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Testluv wrote:Yes; technically, they can. Technically, "many" and "some" just mean "one or anything greater" although the best interpretation of "many" on the GMAT is, as ron said, "quite a few but short of a majority."


this is correct.

Also, "many" and "few" behave as contrasts. Eg: "Many TV shows are great" = "Few TV shows aren't great".
this is not correct (and, in fact, contradicts what you just wrote above), since "many" and "few" both traditionally refer to quantities less than half.

if you said "FEW shows are NOT great", then you could say "MOST shows are great".
but, the normal interpretation of "many shows are great", contra what you wrote above, is that even more of them are not great.

--

in any case. this is going to sound vague, but it's the most accurate summary you're going to get:

the word "MANY" is normally used to mean "ENOUGH TO PRODUCE A NOTICEABLE EFFECT in whatever statistic is being studied".

this problem is a perfect example. the problem gives some sort of statistical discrepancy - and "many" basically means "enough to produce the observed difference".
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by Testluv » Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:30 am

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I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you and argue that you were incorrect to say I was incorrect, and that insofar as we are confining the discussion to "usual" interpretation, I was correct in saying this: " 'many' and 'few' behave as contrasts. Eg: 'Many TV shows are great' = 'Few TV shows aren't great'"
the word "MANY" is normally used to mean "ENOUGH TO PRODUCE A NOTICEABLE EFFECT in whatever statistic is being studied".
I agree with that. But I would argue that the exact same thing applies to "few" mutatis mutandis. That is:

"FEW" is normally used to mean "NOT ENOUGH TO PRODUCE A NOTICEABLE EFFECT in whatever statistic is being studied."

And, in that sense precisely, it is useful for the test-taker to think of "many" and "few" as contrasting notions (which, incidentally, matches the intuitive distinction we would apply to the two terms).

For example, an author who argues that "many bureaucracies are efficient" is certainly making a far different argument from one who argues that "few bureaucracies are efficient." Indeed, these arguments are, in a very relevant sense, opposite in meaning; yet it can be observed that the only thing that distinguishes them is many/few.

Thus, insofar as these considerations are relevant to the test-taker's attempt at arriving at the correct interpretation of authorial intent, there is a contrast in meaning.

Furthermore, if a test-taker is trying to apply the denial test to an answer choice that uses "few", the denial would be "not few" and, surely, the test-taker would benefit from thinking about "not few" as "many".

And now for a lengthy argument:

Your reason for denying that there is a contrast in meaning seems to be that both "many" and "few" "traditionally refer to quantities less than a half." But, beyond that, as I wrote above, there is a very salient distinction between them: Just as, out of 100, "many" can technically mean anywhere from 1 to 100 but is usually best interpreted as a "sizeable" quantity less than a half (according to you), so too "few" can technically mean anywhere from 1 -100 but is usually best interpreted as a quantity that is not sizeable , and definitely one that is well under a half.

Thus, out of "many" and "few", the former is usually intended to convey a respectable or appreciable proportion while the latter is usually intended to convey an unappreciable proportion. Indeed, "many" in RC and CR is often used to emphasize or argue for a sizeable proportion while "few" is most commonly used to emphasize or argue for a non-sizeable propotion. (And note that these arguments can be made even where exact proportions are unknown--in fact these arguments are likely being made because exact proportions are unknown. Therefore, the arguer arguing "many" may well intend to include the possibility of "most").

I would also add the following seriatim list of comments:

First of all, both terms have identical technical meanings, namely anywhere from 1 to 100 (out of 100). Second, these distinctions are far more important for the LSAT. On that test, you would get into BIG TROUBLE if you usually interpreted "many" and "some" as less than half. On that test, there are several questions intended to trap test-takers who are unaware that both "many" and "some" are capable of including "all". (I have, however, never seen a question (GMAT or LSAT) where, in order to arrive at the accredited response, you had to interpret "few" as including the possibility of "all".) Fortunately, GMAT doesn't test this stuff in the way that LSAT does, so much of this thread is, in a way, low-yield kind of stuff. Third, I think once you move beyond the strict numerical equivalency interpretations, there is different kind of correct advice you can give about usual best practices in interpreting these terms.
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by lunarpower » Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:45 am

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@ Testluv

we're square on just about all of this.

in short:

* if you know that "few tv shows are great", then you DEFINITELY know BOTH of the following:
"many tv shows are not great"
"most tv shows are not great"

BUT the converse is not true:
* if you know that "many tv shows are great", then you DO NOT know that "few tv shows are not great".

the difference is that "few" specifically means far less than half - far less than a plurality - while, as you've pointed out, "many" is ambiguous.

--

off topic, so you should probably PM me:
are there really lsat questions that require you to realize that "some" can mean "all"? i have very extensive lsat experience, and i have never seen a "trick question" of that sort.
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by Testluv » Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:47 am

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Response to off-topic bit: Well, I've seen LSAT could be true/false and must be true/false questions where if in the stimulus the author says "some x are y", you have to recognize that it could be true that "all x are y". These questions test whether the LSAT test-taker understands that "some x are y" does not necessarily mean "some x are NOT y". In other words "some x are y" allows for "all x are y". (On the LSAT, in these kinds of questions, if the test-taker intends to exclude "all" it always says "some but not all" or "most but not all".) This is, however, more often a reason underlying why a wrong answer is wrong rather than why the right answer is right. But this is exactly why it is always so important to emphasize for the LSAT that both "some" and "many" can include "all". Also, wrong answers are often wrong because "some" can be regarded as "many", and vice-versa. I'll try to dig up an example or two.

_____________

I would definitely agree with your comments in your post above. However, I feel they are most apposite for inference questions where the task is to determine what must be true. And, this question is, of course, a must be true question. When it comes to determining what must be true, definitely knowing that "many TVs are great" does not mean that "few are not great" because "many" could be less than half, and so if less than half of TVS are great, it definitely doesn't establish that "few are not great". But, I doubt you would have to deal with this last issue in GMAT inference.


I think the thing to consider is that GMAT inference is far different from LSAT inference, and so those comments, technically correct though they are, perhaps may not have great breadth for the GMAT test-takers. I just don't think GMAT inference likes to test these highly technical and formal subtleties.

On the other hand, treating "many" and "few" as behaving as contrasting notions is, as per my lengthy post above, sound advice for interpreting those terms in GMAT RC and GMAT CR arguments when the issue is ascertaining and/or denying the meaning of the author's conclusion(s). Perhaps I should have been more clear about that in my original post (but I thought we were talking "usual" interpretations!)

_____________

In my original post the many/few TAKEAWAY can be summed up as follows: in arguments and RC passages, it will most often (usually) be very helpful to think of "many x are y" and "few x are y" as argument--counter argument. Or, as I said in my original post: many and few behave as contrasts.
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by joseph32 » Sun May 15, 2016 10:29 pm

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I believe the answer should be E