MGMAT SC Discussion Continues on BTG

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MGMAT SC Discussion Continues on BTG

by mundasingh123 » Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:54 am
Hi Ron,
Teratomas are unusual forms of cancer because they are composed of tissues such as tooth and bone not normally found in the organ in which the tumor appears.


A. because they are composed of tissues such as tooth and bone

B. because they are composed of tissues like tooth and bone that are

C. because they are composed of tissues, like tooth and bone, tissues

D. in that their composition , tissues such as tooth and bone, is

E. in that they are composed of tissues such as tooth and bone, tissues


E is the correct answer.
Quoting Ron
i found this sentence interesting:
However, in the OG I remember reading that "in that" is a conjunction meaning 'inasmuch as' which is considered stilted and overly formal.

it appears that you're conflating the following 2 ideas:
(1) 'in that' has the same meaning as 'inasmuch as'
(2) 'inasmuch as' is apparently considered stilted/formal by the o.g. people
even if taken together, these 2 statements definitely don't imply that 'in that' is too formal / stilted.

analogy: 'you' means the same as 'thou', which is considered archaic. this of course doesn't mean that 'you' is also archaic.

--

do you understand the difference between 'because' and 'in that'?
'because' is used to state a cause-effect relationship between 2 phenomena.
'in that' is used to circumscribe a statement. if a sentence says 'X is exceptional in that it does Y', then the implication is that doing Y is pretty much the only thing that's exceptional about X.

--

by the way, you mean insight, not incite. (incite is a verb, meaning, roughly, 'to initiate or stir up some sort of bad behavior or undesirable event')
Whats wrong with saying Teratomas are unusual forms of cancer because they are composed of tissues such as tooth and bone . I mean whats wrong with implying cause and effect relationship here . I noticed another thread existing on MGMAT and i am aware that the issue has been discussed exhaustively . :(
But its important for me to understand why the cause and effect relation is not acceptable here . I read through another of your replies on the same BTG Thread , which spkoe about the difference between in that and because . I understood it well but why is the cause and effect relation not correct and why should we eliminate it because it implies a causative effect . I apologize for circumlocuting on the same idea but i am trying my best to make clear my question.

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by Geva@EconomistGMAT » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:14 pm
mundasingh123 wrote:Hi Ron,
Teratomas are unusual forms of cancer because they are composed of tissues such as tooth and bone not normally found in the organ in which the tumor appears.


A. because they are composed of tissues such as tooth and bone

B. because they are composed of tissues like tooth and bone that are

C. because they are composed of tissues, like tooth and bone, tissues

D. in that their composition , tissues such as tooth and bone, is

E. in that they are composed of tissues such as tooth and bone, tissues


E is the correct answer.
Quoting Ron
i found this sentence interesting:
However, in the OG I remember reading that "in that" is a conjunction meaning 'inasmuch as' which is considered stilted and overly formal.

it appears that you're conflating the following 2 ideas:
(1) 'in that' has the same meaning as 'inasmuch as'
(2) 'inasmuch as' is apparently considered stilted/formal by the o.g. people
even if taken together, these 2 statements definitely don't imply that 'in that' is too formal / stilted.

analogy: 'you' means the same as 'thou', which is considered archaic. this of course doesn't mean that 'you' is also archaic.

--

do you understand the difference between 'because' and 'in that'?
'because' is used to state a cause-effect relationship between 2 phenomena.
'in that' is used to circumscribe a statement. if a sentence says 'X is exceptional in that it does Y', then the implication is that doing Y is pretty much the only thing that's exceptional about X.

--

by the way, you mean insight, not incite. (incite is a verb, meaning, roughly, 'to initiate or stir up some sort of bad behavior or undesirable event')
Whats wrong with saying Teratomas are unusual forms of cancer because they are composed of tissues such as tooth and bone . I mean whats wrong with implying cause and effect relationship here . I noticed another thread existing on MGMAT and i am aware that the issue has been discussed exhaustively . :(
But its important for me to understand why the cause and effect relation is not acceptable here . I read through another of your replies on the same BTG Thread , which spkoe about the difference between in that and because . I understood it well but why is the cause and effect relation not correct and why should we eliminate it because it implies a causative effect . I apologize for circumlocuting on the same idea but i am trying my best to make clear my question.

https://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/bec ... t3399.html
I'll let Ron delve more deeply into the because Vs in that issue, as I'm not sure that it is an issue here - I don't think A is eliminated because of the use of "because", and I suspect that this change is a decoy.

I would just like to point out that Another key difference between A and E is the location of the modifying clause "not normally found in the organ", which should modify the noun "tissues". A modifying clause should ideally be adjacent to the noun it modifies, but in a the examples of "tooth and bone" are stuck between "tissues" and the modifier, implying that the tooth and bone are not normally found in the organ (whereas the meaning of the sentence is that the tissues in general (including tooth and bone) are not found in the organ).
E resolves that issue by repeating the noun "tissues" after the example of tooth and bone, thus clarifying that the tissues are not found in the organ, and not just the examples.
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by mundasingh123 » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:26 pm
Thanks for clarifying the point about such as X and Y coming in between what is modified and Modifier But , if the issue is not Because and "in that ", then C also becomes a valid answer then ,Geva .
Last edited by mundasingh123 on Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by Geva@EconomistGMAT » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:28 pm
mundasingh123 wrote:But then C also becomes a valid answer then ,Geva .
C (as well as B) is eliminated by the incorrect use of "like" to say "such as" or "for example" - a commonly accepted use in everyday speech, but a cause for elimination in the GMAT.
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by mundasingh123 » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:38 pm
So Geva
There is nothing wrong with showing that the tissues are similar to tooth and bone .
Are we assuming that the SC wants to introduce examples because The original Sentence has "such as "
If the original SC didnt have "such as " , would we have still gone for E , assuming that the sentence intends to introduce examples
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by Frankenstein » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:47 pm
Hi,
C. because they are composed of tissues, like tooth and bone, tissues

"like tooth and bone" is used as a non-essential modifier. So, usage of tissues after the non-essential modifier is redundant. So, C can be eliminated this way.
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by Geva@EconomistGMAT » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:55 pm
mundasingh123 wrote:So Geva
There is nothing wrong with showing that the tissues are similar to tooth and bone .
Are we assuming that the SC wants to introduce examples because The original Sentence has "such as "
If the original SC didnt have "such as " , would we have still gone for E , assuming that the sentence intends to introduce examples
In the GMAT, like can only be used to COMPARE nouns: this table is like that table. Like my father, I too am a redhead.

Like cannot be used to say "such as": "Basic ice cream flavors, like chocolate, vanilla and strawberry, are the best" is not really trying to compare ice cream flavors to chocolate, and is therefore wrong.

In the original sentence, comparing the tissues to tooth and bone does not make sense - the tissues are not like tooth and bones - tooth and bones and examples of the tissues we are discussing here.
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by GMATMadeEasy » Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:16 am
@Geva: Could you help with E in usage of such as ? Should it be followed by punctuation or not

E as given: and no issues with this
Teratomas are unusual forms of cancer in that they are composed of tissues such as tooth and bone, tissues not normally found in the organ in which the tumor appears.

E after modification: (i have introduced two commas and removed)
Teratomas are unusual forms of cancer in that they are composed of tissues, such as tooth and bone, not normally found in the organ in which the tumor appears.

Q1 -> Could we use commas for such as
Q2 -> Is this sentence correct now because I have put non-essential part in commas ,making sure the last modifier modifies tissues correctly.

One issue I see is that tooth is not a tissue but it is composed of tissues;but thi sis mute because all ACs treat it the same way.

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by Geva@EconomistGMAT » Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:49 am
GMATMadeEasy wrote:@Geva: Could you help with E in usage of such as ? Should it be followed by punctuation or not

E as given: and no issues with this
Teratomas are unusual forms of cancer in that they are composed of tissues such as tooth and bone, tissues not normally found in the organ in which the tumor appears.

E after modification: (i have introduced two commas and removed)
Teratomas are unusual forms of cancer in that they are composed of tissues, such as tooth and bone, not normally found in the organ in which the tumor appears.

Q1 -> Could we use commas for such as
Q2 -> Is this sentence correct now because I have put non-essential part in commas ,making sure the last modifier modifies tissues correctly.

One issue I see is that tooth is not a tissue but it is composed of tissues;but thi sis mute because all ACs treat it the same way.
Q1 - there's no question that commas can be used in this case.

Q2 - here I am less clear cut. If the such as clause were enclose in brackets, the sentence would be perfect
they are composed of tissues (such as tooth and bone) not normally found

comma separation usually acts in the same way as brackets - it encloses a part of the sentence that is deemed non-restrictive and merely additional information, and implies that the main clause can be read without it. However, clauses following the commas can the modify the bracketed portion as well, such as in:

"Basic ice cream flavors, like chocolate, vanilla and strawberry, all well established favorites in the K-12 demographic, are the best."

So your sentence works, not because it is necessarily clear that the "not found" clause modifies the right portion (it can still modify the "such as tooth and bone" part), but rather because if the the alternative where "not found" modifies "tooth and bone" and is relegated to the lower level clause doesn't work: the main clause remains unfinished:

Teratomas are unusual forms of cancer in that they are composed of tissues...and the rest is just examples and modifiers of the examples.

But I would hesitate to say that commas in general can play the same part as brackets - there is such a thing as a string of modifiers separated by commas.
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by mundasingh123 » Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:16 am
In the GMAT, like can only be used to COMPARE nouns: this table is like that table. Like my father, I too am a redhead.

Like cannot be used to say "such as": "Basic ice cream flavors, like chocolate, vanilla and strawberry, are the best" is not really trying to compare ice cream flavors to chocolate, and is therefore wrong.

In the original sentence, comparing the tissues to tooth and bone does not make sense - the tissues are not like tooth and bones - tooth and bones and examples of the tissues we are discussing here.
i am sorry geva , i didnt understand the qoted portion .
why is it wrong to say tissues like tooth and bones
i am not comparing
i am saying that tissues are similar to tooth and bones .
whats wrong in saying this ?
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by Geva@EconomistGMAT » Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:36 am
mundasingh123 wrote:
In the GMAT, like can only be used to COMPARE nouns: this table is like that table. Like my father, I too am a redhead.

Like cannot be used to say "such as": "Basic ice cream flavors, like chocolate, vanilla and strawberry, are the best" is not really trying to compare ice cream flavors to chocolate, and is therefore wrong.

In the original sentence, comparing the tissues to tooth and bone does not make sense - the tissues are not like tooth and bones - tooth and bones and examples of the tissues we are discussing here.
i am sorry geva , i didnt understand the qoted portion .
why is it wrong to say tissues like tooth and bones
i am not comparing
i am saying that tissues are similar to tooth and bones .
whats wrong in saying this ?
Similiar in what way?
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by mundasingh123 » Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:34 am
Geva@MasterGMAT wrote:
mundasingh123 wrote:
In the GMAT, like can only be used to COMPARE nouns: this table is like that table. Like my father, I too am a redhead.

Like cannot be used to say "such as": "Basic ice cream flavors, like chocolate, vanilla and strawberry, are the best" is not really trying to compare ice cream flavors to chocolate, and is therefore wrong.

In the original sentence, comparing the tissues to tooth and bone does not make sense - the tissues are not like tooth and bones - tooth and bones and examples of the tissues we are discussing here.
i am sorry geva , i didnt understand the qoted portion .
why is it wrong to say tissues like tooth and bones
i am not comparing
i am saying that tissues are similar to tooth and bones .
whats wrong in saying this ?
Similiar in what way?
Similar in the sense that both do not normally found in the organ in which the tumor appears.
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by Geva@EconomistGMAT » Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:58 am
mundasingh123 wrote:
Geva@MasterGMAT wrote:
mundasingh123 wrote:
In the GMAT, like can only be used to COMPARE nouns: this table is like that table. Like my father, I too am a redhead.

Like cannot be used to say "such as": "Basic ice cream flavors, like chocolate, vanilla and strawberry, are the best" is not really trying to compare ice cream flavors to chocolate, and is therefore wrong.

In the original sentence, comparing the tissues to tooth and bone does not make sense - the tissues are not like tooth and bones - tooth and bones and examples of the tissues we are discussing here.
i am sorry geva , i didnt understand the qoted portion .
why is it wrong to say tissues like tooth and bones
i am not comparing
i am saying that tissues are similar to tooth and bones .
whats wrong in saying this ?
Similiar in what way?
Similar in the sense that both do not normally found in the organ in which the tumor appears.
In that case, the tooth and bone are just "parachuted" into the sentence with no logical reason for their being there. Camels also are not normally found in the organ in which the tumor appears - we could just as easily say that they are composed of tissues, like camels, tissues not normally found in the organ in which the tumor appears. Do you see the problem with using like to mean "similiar" in this case? The correct way to run that comparison is to use "composed of tissues that are like tooth and bone in that they are not normally..." Which is a different meaning altogether, and an illogical at that - why do we need to stress that the tissues are like tooth and bone? What purpose does this serve in the sentence?

It is more logical to take the original sentence's meaning that tooth and bone are examples of tissues not normally found in the organ in which the tumor appears, and to eliminate answer choices using like as a unidiomatic use of like.
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