"that/which" vs. "-ing"

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smodak: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 69; Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:08 am; Thanked: 1 times

by smodak » Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:36 pm

I should probably know this but I don't - in fact I am very confused. When should a "that/which" modifier be used as opposed to an "-ing" modifier.?

"All you have to do is to fill in the details, including your name and address and the amount you wish to give."
vs.
"All you have to do is to fill in the details that/which includes your name and address and the amount you wish to give."

What are the correct grammatical rules?

Please do not restrict the discussion to my example only.

Thanks a lot for help!!!

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Geva@EconomistGMAT: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 905; Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:38 amFollowed by: 123 members; Thanked: 378 times; GMAT Score:760

by Geva@EconomistGMAT » Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:43 pm

smodak wrote:I should probably know this but I don't - in fact I am very confused. When should a "that/which" modifier be used as opposed to an "-ing" modifier.?

"All you have to do is to fill in the details, including your name and address and the amount you wish to give."
vs.
"All you have to do is to fill in the details that/which includes your name and address and the amount you wish to give."

What are the correct grammatical rules?

Please do not restrict the discussion to my example only.

Thanks a lot for help!!!

the two forms are interchangeable, with the V-ing form acting as an ellipsis of the relative clause form.

In simpler words: when you say "details, including your name...", you are, in essence, saying "details, which include your name" - only using fewer words.

the difference between "which" and "that" is the difference between necessary and unnecessary information. In your example, the modifying clause merely lists a few examples of what the details should include, and thus should be separated by a comma, and use which if you opt for the full relative clause form. Other cases will use that to indicate that the information is crucial in defining exactly what you're talking about.

The dog that barks in the night will soon be sent to the pound.

Here, the relative clause "that" describes which dog we're discussing - the one that barks in the night - as compared to other, quieter canines. In this case we need the relative clause to begin with "that" and not be separated by a comma, to indicate that the modifier is an essential part of the noun description.

Hope this helps.

Geva
Senior Instructor
Master GMAT
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smodak: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 69; Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:08 am; Thanked: 1 times

by smodak » Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:21 am

Geva@MasterGMAT wrote: the two forms are interchangeable, with the V-ing form acting as an ellipsis of the relative clause form.

In simpler words: when you say "details, including your name...", you are, in essence, saying "details, which include your name" - only using fewer words.

Geva, that helps a lot.
So there should not be two answers in GMAT SC differing only in the "-ing" and non-"ing" forms?

The difference between 'that' and 'which' is also clear from your reply.

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Geva@EconomistGMAT: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 905; Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:38 amFollowed by: 123 members; Thanked: 378 times; GMAT Score:760

by Geva@EconomistGMAT » Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:33 pm

smodak wrote:
Geva@MasterGMAT wrote: the two forms are interchangeable, with the V-ing form acting as an ellipsis of the relative clause form.

In simpler words: when you say "details, including your name...", you are, in essence, saying "details, which include your name" - only using fewer words.

Geva, that helps a lot.
So there should not be two answers in GMAT SC differing only in the "-ing" and non-"ing" forms?

The difference between 'that' and 'which' is also clear from your reply.

I didn't say that. A sentence correction problem could pit the two against each other, and everything else being equal, I would opt for the more concise V-ing form (the relative pronoun will almost always be the longer version, as it creates a clause, which requires a subject and verb). But I would look for supporting reasons to eliminate one answer choice or the other, as this is purely a stylistic issue - grammatically, both forms are fine.

Geva
Senior Instructor
Master GMAT
1-888-780-GMAT
https://www.mastergmat.com

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smodak: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 69; Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:08 am; Thanked: 1 times

by smodak » Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:53 am

Geva@MasterGMAT wrote:
I didn't say that. A sentence correction problem could pit the two against each other, and everything else being equal, I would opt for the more concise V-ing form (the relative pronoun will almost always be the longer version, as it creates a clause, which requires a subject and verb). But I would look for supporting reasons to eliminate one answer choice or the other, as this is purely a stylistic issue - grammatically, both forms are fine.

Hi Geva,

Take, for exaple, this OG 12 question.

The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption
that lying produces emotional reactions in an individual
that, in turn, create unconscious physiological
responses.
(A) that, in turn, create unconscious physiological
responses
(B) that creates unconscious physiological
responses in turn
(C) creating, in turn, unconscious physiological
responses
(D) to create, in turn, physiological responses that
are unconscious
(E) who creates unconscious physiological
responses in turn

The answer is A.

Question is why A is better than C? Is this because 'that create' starts a restrcitive clause but 'creating' without comma does not? The OG says A represents the causal sequence (in turn) better than C - how? Why does 'that, in turn create' refer to 'reaction' while 'creating, in turn' refers to 'lying'?

As far as I see (I am not very good in SC), C differs from A only stylistically but I cannot ficgure out why the style in A is better than that in C.

Last edited by smodak on Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Geva@EconomistGMAT: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 905; Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:38 amFollowed by: 123 members; Thanked: 378 times; GMAT Score:760

by Geva@EconomistGMAT » Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:01 pm

smodak wrote:
Geva@MasterGMAT wrote:
I didn't say that. A sentence correction problem could pit the two against each other, and everything else being equal, I would opt for the more concise V-ing form (the relative pronoun will almost always be the longer version, as it creates a clause, which requires a subject and verb). But I would look for supporting reasons to eliminate one answer choice or the other, as this is purely a stylistic issue - grammatically, both forms are fine.
Hi Geva,

Take, for exaple, this OG 12 question.

The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption
that lying produces emotional reactions in an individual
that, in turn, create unconscious physiological
responses.
(A) that, in turn, create unconscious physiological
responses
(B) that creates unconscious physiological
responses in turn
(C) creating, in turn, unconscious physiological
responses
(D) to create, in turn, physiological responses that
are unconscious
(E) who creates unconscious physiological
responses in turn

The answer is D.

Question is why D is better than C? Is this because 'that create' starts a restrcitive clause but 'creating' without comma does not? The OG says D represents the causal sequence (in turn) better than C - how? Why does 'that, in turn create' refer to 'reaction' while 'creating, in turn' refers to 'lying'?

As far as I see (I am not very good in SC), C differs from D only stylistically but I cannot ficgure out why the style in D is better than that in C.

First, please verify that the answer is indeed D - I believe that is incorrect. What is the question number?

Geva
Senior Instructor
Master GMAT
1-888-780-GMAT
https://www.mastergmat.com

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smodak: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 69; Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:08 am; Thanked: 1 times

by smodak » Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:48 pm

Geva@MasterGMAT wrote:
smodak wrote:
Geva@MasterGMAT wrote:
I didn't say that. A sentence correction problem could pit the two against each other, and everything else being equal, I would opt for the more concise V-ing form (the relative pronoun will almost always be the longer version, as it creates a clause, which requires a subject and verb). But I would look for supporting reasons to eliminate one answer choice or the other, as this is purely a stylistic issue - grammatically, both forms are fine.
Hi Geva,

Take, for exaple, this OG 12 question.

The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption
that lying produces emotional reactions in an individual
that, in turn, create unconscious physiological
responses.
(A) that, in turn, create unconscious physiological
responses
(B) that creates unconscious physiological
responses in turn
(C) creating, in turn, unconscious physiological
responses
(D) to create, in turn, physiological responses that
are unconscious
(E) who creates unconscious physiological
responses in turn

The answer is D.

Question is why D is better than C? Is this because 'that create' starts a restrcitive clause but 'creating' without comma does not? The OG says D represents the causal sequence (in turn) better than C - how? Why does 'that, in turn create' refer to 'reaction' while 'creating, in turn' refers to 'lying'?

As far as I see (I am not very good in SC), C differs from D only stylistically but I cannot ficgure out why the style in D is better than that in C.
First, please verify that the answer is indeed D - I believe that is incorrect. What is the question number?

I apologize. The official answer is A not D. I typed it wrong. The question # is 126. My question still is why is A better than C? I will correct my original post.

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e-GMAT: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 645; Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:42 pmFollowed by: 227 members; Location: US; Thanked: 527 times

by e-GMAT » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:50 am

Hi Sushan,

Think about "who" or "what" creates the physiological responses. Individuals or the emotional reactions...

In choice A, this reference is clear. The emotional reactions in individuals create these physiological reactions.

In choice C, there is ambiguity. The modifier - creating... - can modify either individuals or reactions.

Thanks,

Payal

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smodak: Senior | Next Rank: 100 Posts; Posts: 69; Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:08 am; Thanked: 1 times

by smodak » Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:05 pm

e-GMAT wrote:Hi Sushan,

Think about "who" or "what" creates the physiological responses. Individuals or the emotional reactions...

In choice A, this reference is clear. The emotional reactions in individuals create these physiological reactions.

In choice C, there is ambiguity. The modifier - creating... - can modify either individuals or reactions.

Thanks,

Payal

Hi Payal,

Thanks a lot for answering this. It makes sense now.

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Geva@EconomistGMAT: GMAT Instructor; Posts: 905; Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:38 amFollowed by: 123 members; Thanked: 378 times; GMAT Score:760

by Geva@EconomistGMAT » Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:10 am

Responding to a PM to clarify my own view. I Agree with Payal's post above about the ambiguity if "creating" in C. Would just like to further point out that A clarifies that ambiguity not by a different placement of the clause - A places the relative clause beginning with "that" at the same location as C places the modifier beginning with the gerund "creating". Instead, A creates a less ambiguous sentence by creating a clause with a plural verb "create" - which must agree with the plural subject "reactions" and not the singular subject "individual".

Geva
Senior Instructor
Master GMAT
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https://www.mastergmat.com

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pappueshwar: Master | Next Rank: 500 Posts; Posts: 234; Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:28 pmFollowed by: 4 members; Location: chennai; Thanked: 5 times

by pappueshwar » Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:57 am

hey all,

good day.

i think the prime difference btw "that"and "which" is :

A) "That" just introduces or shows...." that car in the garage is mine".

B) " which"goes a bit more deeper and explains...""the car which has automatic steering and a burglar alarm in the garage is mine"

let me know if this understanding is correct

thanks
eshwar

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UmangMathur: Junior | Next Rank: 30 Posts; Posts: 20; Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:32 pm; Thanked: 1 times

by UmangMathur » Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:32 am

Geva@MasterGMAT wrote:
smodak wrote:
Geva@MasterGMAT wrote:
I didn't say that. A sentence correction problem could pit the two against each other, and everything else being equal, I would opt for the more concise V-ing form (the relative pronoun will almost always be the longer version, as it creates a clause, which requires a subject and verb). But I would look for supporting reasons to eliminate one answer choice or the other, as this is purely a stylistic issue - grammatically, both forms are fine.
Hi Geva,

Take, for exaple, this OG 12 question.

The use of lie detectors is based on the assumption
that lying produces emotional reactions in an individual
that, in turn, create unconscious physiological
responses.
(A) that, in turn, create unconscious physiological
responses
(B) that creates unconscious physiological
responses in turn
(C) creating, in turn, unconscious physiological
responses
(D) to create, in turn, physiological responses that
are unconscious
(E) who creates unconscious physiological
responses in turn

The answer is D.

Question is why D is better than C? Is this because 'that create' starts a restrcitive clause but 'creating' without comma does not? The OG says D represents the causal sequence (in turn) better than C - how? Why does 'that, in turn create' refer to 'reaction' while 'creating, in turn' refers to 'lying'?

As far as I see (I am not very good in SC), C differs from D only stylistically but I cannot ficgure out why the style in D is better than that in C.
First, please verify that the answer is indeed D - I believe that is incorrect. What is the question number?

If in the same question, the answer choice D is replaced by, which, create unconscious physiological
responses.

Then which choice will be preferred and why.

Cheers!!!
Umang

Cheers!!!
Umang

Will Tame GMAT

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sashisaini: Newbie | Next Rank: 10 Posts; Posts: 1; Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:24 am

reply

by sashisaini » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:24 am

Geva@EconomistGMAT wrote:
smodak wrote:I should probably know this but I don't - in fact I am very confused. When should a "that/which" modifier be used as opposed to an "-ing" modifier.?

"All you have to do is to fill in the details, including your name and address and the amount you wish to give."
vs.
"All you have to do is to fill in the details that/which includes your name and address and the amount you wish to give."

What are the correct grammatical rules?

Please do not restrict the discussion to my example only.

Thanks a lot for help!!!
the two forms are interchangeable, with the V-ing form acting as an ellipsis of the relative clause form.

In simpler words: when you say "details, including your name...", you are, in essence, saying "details, which include your name" - only using fewer words.

the difference between "which" and "that" is the difference between necessary and unnecessary information. In your example, the modifying clause merely lists a few examples of what the details should include, and thus should be separated by a comma, and use which if you opt for the full relative clause form. Other cases will use that to indicate that the information is crucial in defining exactly what you're talking about.

The dog that barks in the night will soon be sent to the pound.

Here, the relative clause "that" describes which dog we're discussing - the one that barks in the night - as compared to other, quieter canines. In this case we need the relative clause to begin with "that" and not be separated by a comma, to indicate that the modifier is an essential part of the noun description.

Hope this helps.

Hey ! I really liked your explanation but I have one doubt .
In the above sentence.
"All you have to do is to fill in the details, including your name and address and the amount you wish to give."
What does this "including" describe? Is it details?

If its details, shouldn't it be without comma?
For eg- Joe played with a puppy wearing black collar. ( here wearing describes puppy)

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